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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-30ad4f43432si43633a91.3.2025.05.07.13.43.02 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 May 2025 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of james.obeirne@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032; Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-3081fe5987eso339599a91.3 for ; Wed, 07 May 2025 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU0h3cYQBlbIurOOiE+ZUY47n0EBs52QehstUIqhU1XU62nj8KE25zEtOT6ai5wVkMLwxf1VpEIX0SX@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncudD9Vp5ET/eZ64rTVBQZgbWM54qrZal8/aCPxwkz3NEr2Q3Q+kb/KZUHLHgPd lkRqLtsjR8HjIRcIwEZwpnEA8ETw3pmef99oFID0Zg6Z9fiBw37MG51nMCVP8K41JsGgPpn6wm1 utVEHKZ5I7IgiqDJVPGyha X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3908:b0:305:2d27:7cb0 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-30aac1b6a2bmr6963660a91.21.1746650582066; Wed, 07 May 2025 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9c50244f-0ca0-40a5-8b76-01ba0d67ec1bn@googlegroups.com> <0b6ac4cf-1f58-42b4-823a-8b35fad9f17fn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: From: "James O'Beirne" Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 20:42:51 +0000 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUHxpiJ0FLqAOthmE67WFUzTc2M4bESueeEG1u1MmMasfrCl2JFq6gcQyxY Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Weak blocks give an advantage to large miners To: Peter Todd Cc: Anthony Towns , Greg Maxwell , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007dab61063491c727" X-Original-Sender: james.obeirne@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=LFvw9Hk2; spf=pass (google.com: domain of james.obeirne@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=james.obeirne@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000007dab61063491c727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This analysis excludes two important points: 1. If a small miner has a mempool that is marginally closer to a large miner's, they will connect blocks found by that miner more quickly, making their own mining operation more efficient. 2. A small miner benefits from becoming aware of (potentially large, non-standard, or directly submitted) transactions because they may want to make use of it in their own block templates for more revenue. Bandwidth is rarely a limiting factor for template creators (as there are many more expensive pieces of hardware required to have a competitive mining operation), and so a miner may very reasonably decide that it's worth trading some bandwidth (in the form of received weak blocks) for the prospect of juicing their fee revenue and minimizing tip connection time. On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 11:36=E2=80=AFPM Peter Todd wro= te: > On Mon, May 05, 2025 at 07:18:57PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > > I meant to mention this last email, but had forgotten where to find > > the link. Personally, I think Greg's "relay extra transactions via weak > > blocks" idea [0] from a year ago is an approach that should be consider= ed > > here. The TLDR is that if there are miners out there with different > > relay policies than your node that are accepting transactions you'll > > reject (eg, lower fee, new tx versions, more complicated dependencies, > > ...) then once they find a relatively high PoW share, have the network > > relay that as a weak compact block, with full round-trips to gather > > any transactions that weren't in your mempool and add those txs to your > > extra pool to help with block reconstruction in the near future. > > > > [0] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/second-look-at-weak-blocks/805/1 > > Weak blocks give an advantage to large miners. Small miners, who rarely > find blocks, are also going to rarely find weak blocks, making the > feature mostly useless for them in terms of their choice of > transactions, while simultaneously increasing bandwidth consumption > somewhat. Meanwhile large miners do find weak blocks often, making the > feature useful for them and making it even easier for them to profit by > including non-standard transactions. Which again, is something that > small miners can't do. > > -- > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aBku-6CIjQKIQjRS%40petertodd= .org > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAPfvXf%2B2wkB6MyN6Bogr8c6G3uZq255Ec90qC4y5WxuEGoCPrg%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000007dab61063491c727 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This analysis excludes two important= points:

1. If a small miner has a mempool that is marginally closer to a large=20 miner's, they will connect blocks found by that miner more quickly,=20 making their own mining operation more efficient.

= 2. A small miner benefits from becoming aware of (potentially large,=20 non-standard, or directly submitted) transactions because they may want=20 to make use of it in their own block templates for more revenue.
<= div>
Bandwidth is rarely a limiting factor for template creators (as there are many=20 more expensive pieces of hardware required to have a competitive mining=20 operation), and so a miner may very reasonably decide that it's worth= =20 trading some bandwidth (in the form of received weak blocks) for the=20 prospect of juicing their fee revenue and minimizing tip connection=20 time.


On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 11:36=E2= =80=AFPM Peter Todd <pete@petertod= d.org> wrote:
On Mon, May 05, 2025 at 07:18:57PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> I meant to mention this last email, but had forgotten where to find > the link. Personally, I think Greg's "relay extra transaction= s via weak
> blocks" idea [0] from a year ago is an approach that should be co= nsidered
> here. The TLDR is that if there are miners out there with different > relay policies than your node that are accepting transactions you'= ll
> reject (eg, lower fee, new tx versions, more complicated dependencies,=
> ...) then once they find a relatively high PoW share, have the network=
> relay that as a weak compact block, with full round-trips to gather > any transactions that weren't in your mempool and add those txs to= your
> extra pool to help with block reconstruction in the near future.
>
> [0] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/s= econd-look-at-weak-blocks/805/1

Weak blocks give an advantage to large miners. Small miners, who rarely
find blocks, are also going to rarely find weak blocks, making the
feature mostly useless for them in terms of their choice of
transactions, while simultaneously increasing bandwidth consumption
somewhat. Meanwhile large miners do find weak blocks often, making the
feature useful for them and making it even easier for them to profit by
including non-standard transactions. Which again, is something that
small miners can't do.

--
http= s://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aBku-6CIjQKIQjRS%40pete= rtodd.org.

--
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--0000000000007dab61063491c727--