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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d2e1a72fcca58-74eb9e3a88fsi250616b3a.2.2025.07.11.15.59.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Jul 2025 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of james.obeirne@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::532 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::532; Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b3182c6d03bso3096866a12.0 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2025 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV/WgwXmuK9P/HzM6L6M8YaYFu1/JFARg6vZvSVjOHvMGE4nWnWeU42ic/p2qP8pVCFIkEuG5ztpyOp@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncs7DeFsqLabf/HcvlIc0KBFv+iS88NgK2aCwb5ta7I754nJOJHWu/sykxwQUqX Xlh7W0EMkQ4c667bPvahjMAFJQ0V3IRMdi5sv/dG8l3CBPqJQqw61p+wg8Ft+Rd4dvztl6nUHbv oS+cc6jFzeeszrRbVvMI7UJ+vnOHi/i8BWJAe1AaqomHplRxCd/qrLbHEh1WpKVv2cLN3+HNW5L L2qXQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3142:b0:311:b5ac:6f63 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-31c4ccea2abmr7229644a91.21.1752274769376; Fri, 11 Jul 2025 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26b96fb1-d916-474a-bd23-920becc3412cn@googlegroups.com> <_POzkO7sHDURx6skGAWsrxN_UUtN_6Ak6donzVhmzYzAV6Ej22jBnE2baxM_WtqxW2RNvDjze72kOVgowNhqGSJ1dg5m_HTO3FuG6QM5daw=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <_POzkO7sHDURx6skGAWsrxN_UUtN_6Ak6donzVhmzYzAV6Ej22jBnE2baxM_WtqxW2RNvDjze72kOVgowNhqGSJ1dg5m_HTO3FuG6QM5daw=@protonmail.com> From: "James O'Beirne" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 18:59:18 -0400 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXxfUiYvpISWxXMJFN3xURptCXMAYTdQh66IZLVmiwCkVzEZg6h9PCD74Lc Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] A Taproot-native (re-)bindable transaction bundle proposal To: Antoine Poinsot Cc: Greg Sanders , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d7b0d0639af4340" X-Original-Sender: james.obeirne@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=FOWLylUh; spf=pass (google.com: domain of james.obeirne@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::532 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=james.obeirne@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000002d7b0d0639af4340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Antoine, > You state that between 0.1% and 0.75% of all bitcoins in existence are > held in P2TR outputs, and use this figure to conclude the > "overwhelming majority of **value transfer** in bitcoin is still > happening in a pre-Taproot script context". I think you might have misparsed my email; I wasn't using one observation to justify the other. I ran a script[0] to tally the value of newly created outputs by address type, and the node tells me that 93.5% of all output-value created over the last three months is non-P2TR. I'll leave it to you as to whether 93.5% constitutes an "overwhelming majority of value transfer," but I wouldn't really consider that characterization as dishonest. > In 2024 and 2025 between 20% and 40% of all onchain transfers used > Taproot[^0]. If we're going to talk about cherry-picking, here's where to do it. >From the previously linked mempool.space research post[1], they "find that the vast majority (86%) of p2tr UTXOs are sub-1000 sats in value." So the case for *ahem* "legitimate" Taproot activity is probably worse. [0]: https://gist.github.com/jamesob/1e3b07af5fbc1ef9bd9471d83f8d1fa6 [1]: https://research.mempool.space/utxo-set-report/ > We should not provide new features for an outdated scripting context > unless we have a strong reason to. Based on the numbers above, many users would likely disagree that witness v0 is outdated. Sure, there are benefits to Taproot and I like Schnorr signatures as much as the next guy, but the fact is that there's nothing wrong with wit v0 and most users of bitcoin still make use of it. Professionally, I'm in this position. I'll respond to the other stuff later. Sincerely, James -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAPfvXfL59wF-sfrnwkK0NUeGCphsJ1VJzGmbTUDHgNFncx2VSw%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000002d7b0d0639af4340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Antoine,

> You state that be= tween 0.1% and 0.75% of all bitcoins in existence are
> held in P2TR = outputs, and use this figure to conclude the
> "overwhelming maj= ority of **value transfer** in bitcoin is still
> happening in a pre-= Taproot script context".

I think you might have misparsed my em= ail; I wasn't using one
observation to justify the other.

I r= an a script[0] to tally the value of newly created outputs by address
ty= pe, and the node tells me that 93.5% of all output-value created over
th= e last three months is non-P2TR.

I'll leave it to you as to whet= her 93.5% constitutes an "overwhelming
majority of value transfer,&= quot; but I wouldn't really consider that
characterization as dishon= est.

> In 2024 and 2025 between 20% and 40% of all onchain transf= ers used
> Taproot[^0].

If we're going to talk about cherr= y-picking, here's where to do it.
From the previously linked mempool.space research post[1], they "fi= nd
that the vast majority (86%) of p2tr UTXOs are sub-1000 sats in value= ."
So the case for *ahem* "legitimate" Taproot activity i= s probably worse.

[0]: https://gist.github.com/jamesob/1e3b07af5fb= c1ef9bd9471d83f8d1fa6
[1]: https://research.mempool.space/utxo-set-report/
<= br>
> We should not provide new features for an outdated scripting co= ntext
> unless we have a strong reason to.

Based on the number= s above, many users would likely disagree that
witness v0 is outdated. S= ure, there are benefits to Taproot and I like
Schnorr signatures as much= as the next guy, but the fact is that there's
nothing wrong with wi= t v0 and most users of bitcoin still make use of
it. Professionally, I&#= 39;m in this position.

I'll respond to the other stuff later.
Sincerely,
James

--
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