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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8926c6da1cb9f-5013b8f1e0asi89666173.7.2025.06.12.11.38.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Jun 2025 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of james.obeirne@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e; Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7485bcb8b7cso1248936b3a.1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2025 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCX7llRiKWhUfcVZwREIIPX1d3kAWuQ5sMCIw3mmSJTD40X6HTSrk986iRJDQmov5eEkkHp64tFXhvij@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvuld0/6qwefq9g5Th8CstEo5UO1cN8Yclw7/jIAR7ueARHan6dZpLY/aVcFy7 DrLweSEfPy88b6Ub0ammdLnWcbHw97bsoUmnylMT0ZYsKF8r77YKV+J38myQOdYT4bVEHj4axv8 fZSo76esNyplAy8EA/jLDEDHJuhK9m+BDoGUkpJ2Ih6A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:a82:b0:746:26fe:8cdf with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7488f642f15mr458395b3a.7.1749753504678; Thu, 12 Jun 2025 11:38:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46349b6c-ccec-4378-8721-aecec22752e7@mattcorallo.com> <8d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e733c047c@mattcorallo.com> In-Reply-To: <8d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e733c047c@mattcorallo.com> From: "James O'Beirne" Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 14:38:13 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvmEQNEvADSG39xYFOUI02oX2DCIkRtujOAr9iHcQBXC5lV0AltZLdRbLM Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter To: Matt Corallo Cc: Harsha Goli , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001747750637643c2d" X-Original-Sender: james.obeirne@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=ZeVXP4z3; spf=pass (google.com: domain of james.obeirne@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=james.obeirne@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000001747750637643c2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Matt, > Ignoring the threats in the letter There are no threats in the letter, I'm not sure why you think there are. > there's also a question of what the desire is - some signers specifically > want CTV + CSFS now, some signers are worried about "Bitcoin's ossification" > and just want to see progress on changes (in some cases even GCC making > progress may suffice!), while yet others want other specific things and > imagine that the politics of getting their thing will be easier once CTV = + > CSFS happens. These all mandate drastically different responses, yet agai= n > because they're all bunched into one letter we cannot figure out what it is > that they actually want. As the person who coordinated the letter, I can say that this is not an accurate characterization of the signers' intent. Everyone who signed explicitly wants to see the imminent review, integration, and activation planning for CTV+CSFS specifically. The letter is intentionally concise to make sure there are no misunderstandings about that. I spoke to each person on the original list of signatories who either did (or didn't) sign and this was made very clear. Some people didn't sign as a result of what the letter says. The additional viewpoints you list may be shared by some signers, but the point of signing the letter was to signal unambiguous support for the nearterm integration of CTV+CSFS. Best, James On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 2:06=E2=80=AFPM Matt Corallo wrote: > > > On 6/11/25 8:59 PM, Harsha Goli wrote: > > > Quickly chiming in here. I'm digging in heavily to the different needs > and drivers of businesses and > > individuals in the space. I think James is being quite literal here. > There is not unity on what > > should happen after if we reach 2026 without any progress on covenants. > > > > Not speaking for James, but from what I've seen there is no substance o= r > chatter regarding any such > > "vague threat". > > I do think this highlights why sign-on letters tend to have little impact > and are really quite > useless for this kind of thing: when you actually go talk to people, you > come away understanding > that they have very different views on the issue at hand. > > Some signers appear to have intention to release an "activation client", > meanwhile when I talk to > other signers they're really just trying to encourage more focused > research on things in this area. > Those are *drastically* different views, yet both are "covered" by the > same letter. > > Worse yet, there's now organizations signing this letter (yay NYA > reprisal!), which similarly cannot > possibly be filled with people with identical views (of course > organizations themselves cannot opine > on technical bitcoin decisions, individuals do, there is good reason why > organizations do not have a > role within IETF, only engineers expressing their own opinions, which may > benefit their organization). > > Ignoring the threats in the letter, there's also a question of what the > desire is - some signers > specifically want CTV + CSFS now, some signers are worried about > "Bitcoin's ossification" and just > want to see progress on changes (in some cases even GCC making progress > may suffice!), while yet > others want other specific things and imagine that the politics of gettin= g > their thing will be > easier once CTV + CSFS happens. These all mandate drastically different > responses, yet again because > they're all bunched into one letter we cannot figure out what it is that > they actually want. > > Instead, and I've encouraged various people who've signed to do this, > having engineers who wish to > utilize these features speak up about what, specific, tools and protocols > they wish to build using > CTV + CSFS would be much more interesting. Unlike a generic "We Want > Things" sign-on letter, > individual messages indicating desire to utilize features is way more > compelling, not just to > overall impression of Bitcoin's consensus, but also to the individuals > deciding what to do with > their time - now you can see actual real-world desires. > > Matt > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/8d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e= 733c047c%40mattcorallo.com > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAPfvXfLc5-%3DUVpcvYrC%3DVP7rLRroFviLTjPQfeqMQesjziL%3DCQ%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000001747750637643c2d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Matt,

> Ignoring the t= hreats in the letter

There are no threats in the letter, I'm not= sure why you
think there are.

> there's als= o a question of what the desire is - some signers specifically
> want= CTV + CSFS now, some signers are worried about "Bitcoin's ossific= ation"
> and just want to see progress on changes (in some cases= even GCC making
> progress may suffice!), while yet others want othe= r specific things and
> imagine that the politics of getting their th= ing will be easier once CTV +
> CSFS happens. These all mandate drast= ically different responses, yet again
> because they're all bunch= ed into one letter we cannot figure out what it is
> that they actual= ly want.

As the person who coordinated the letter, I can say that th= is is not an
accurate characterization of the signers' intent. Every= one who signed
explicitly wants to see the imminent review, integration,= and activation
planning for CTV+CSFS specifically. The letter is intent= ionally concise to make
sure there are no misunderstandings about that.<= br>
I spoke to each person on the original list of signatories who eithe= r did (or
didn't) sign and this was made very clear. Some people did= n't sign as a result
of what the letter says.

The additional= viewpoints you list may be shared by some signers, but the point
of sig= ning the letter was to signal unambiguous support for the nearterm
integ= ration of CTV+CSFS.

Best,
James


On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 2:06=E2=80=AFPM Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com> wrote:


On 6/11/25 8:59 PM, Harsha Goli wrote:

> Quickly chiming in here. I'm digging in heavily to the different n= eeds and drivers of businesses and
> individuals in the space. I think James is being quite literal here. T= here is not unity on what
> should happen after if we reach 2026 without any progress on covenants= .
>
> Not speaking for James, but from what I've seen there is no substa= nce or chatter regarding any such
> "vague threat".

I do think this highlights why sign-on letters tend to have little impact a= nd are really quite
useless for this kind of thing: when you actually go talk to people, you co= me away understanding
that they have very different views on the issue at hand.

Some signers appear to have intention to release an "activation client= ", meanwhile when I talk to
other signers they're really just trying to encourage more focused rese= arch on things in this area.
Those are *drastically* different views, yet both are "covered" b= y the same letter.

Worse yet, there's now organizations signing this letter (yay NYA repri= sal!), which similarly cannot
possibly be filled with people with identical views (of course organization= s themselves cannot opine
on technical bitcoin decisions, individuals do, there is good reason why or= ganizations do not have a
role within IETF, only engineers expressing their own opinions, which may b= enefit their organization).

Ignoring the threats in the letter, there's also a question of what the= desire is - some signers
specifically want CTV + CSFS now, some signers are worried about "Bitc= oin's ossification" and just
want to see progress on changes (in some cases even GCC making progress may= suffice!), while yet
others want other specific things and imagine that the politics of getting = their thing will be
easier once CTV + CSFS happens. These all mandate drastically different res= ponses, yet again because
they're all bunched into one letter we cannot figure out what it is tha= t they actually want.

Instead, and I've encouraged various people who've signed to do thi= s, having engineers who wish to
utilize these features speak up about what, specific, tools and protocols t= hey wish to build using
CTV + CSFS would be much more interesting. Unlike a generic "We Want T= hings" sign-on letter,
individual messages indicating desire to utilize features is way more compe= lling, not just to
overall impression of Bitcoin's consensus, but also to the individuals = deciding what to do with
their time - now you can see actual real-world desires.

Matt

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/8= d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e733c047c%40mattcorallo.com.

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