From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D36E9892 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:51:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-io0-f171.google.com (mail-io0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6050E17D for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:51:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iodb91 with SMTP id b91so1861856iod.1 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:51:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=oX1PQhAgglvGphsPxEY0xuR2w7ALb7FDI4lDvzsSL0w=; b=Wwtk5Re8gEUL5/+RAvYK4mEJpnPZuc5HNhoHJjcZjm3a+C65Fl/AOESq5iIvdHB5PC 76bjcuLihpHxt3pJqO5N5z5chgq0BmqhdH7vfI+6sT/9blUoe2eEfkoxG7H5OydV/q3g c5Nfr2m7zfxllX4jbIQFANSGGWHpOWWSArN3yUoRUX1KsX0FCa3bKETYqcP+5EtazsB2 fyS+iHI0fYBRZ5QINUnqju5UWn7tnqIRTQsadaZ9qwPc5oKJLefi9SrIYAOK8L+72p6p bv13oeOqTPQRv/7bSEwd5JmlzgvIlJnyDDfECdMcFaWaMJ+TTbY4EiN0oUMApnNc2FO1 52Vg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.37.142 with SMTP id l136mr30509068iol.126.1439329915797; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.77.201 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:51:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8181630.GdAj0CPZYc@coldstorage> Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:51:55 +0200 Message-ID: From: Pieter Wuille To: Michael Naber Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140269a58a081051d101cba X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:51:56 -0000 --001a1140269a58a081051d101cba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:35 PM, Michael Naber wrote: > Bitcoin would be better money than current money even if it were a bit > more expensive to transact, simply because of its other great > characteristics (trustlessness, limited supply, etc). However... it is not > better than something else sharing all those same characteristics but which > is also less expensive. The best money will win, and if Bitcoin doesn't > increase capacity then it won't remain the best. > If it is less expensive, it is harder to be reliable (because it's easier for a sudden new use case to outbid the available space), which is less useful for a payment mechanism. If it has better scale (with the same technology), it will have higher centralization pressure. The higher price you potentially pay (in fees) to get your transactions on a smaller block chain is the price of higher security and independence. Perhaps the compromise is not at the optimal place, but please stop saying "below what the technology can do". The technology can "do" gigabyte blocks I'm sure, If you accept that you need a small cluster to keep up with validation, and all blocks are produced by a single miner cartel. IMHO, Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) on-chain as a payment system is: * Expensive: there is a (known in advance and agreed upon) inflation that we're using to pay miners. But by holding Bitcoin you're paying for the security of the system, even if it is not in fees. * Unreliable: you never know when suddenly there will be more higher-fee transactions that outbid you. * Slow, unless you already trust the sender to not double spend (in which case you don't actually need the security of the blockchain). I don't know the future, and I don't know what use cases will develop and what they'll want to pay or what reliability they need. But let's please not throw out the one quality that Bitcoin is still good at: lack of centralized parties to trust. -- Pieter --001a1140269a58a081051d101cba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:35 PM, Michael Naber <micke= ybob@gmail.com> wrote:
Bitcoin = would be better money than current money even if it were a bit more expensi= ve to transact, simply because of its other great characteristics (trustles= sness, limited supply, etc). However... it is not better than something els= e sharing all those same characteristics but which is also less expensive. = The best money will win, and if Bitcoin doesn't increase capacity then = it won't remain the best.

If = it is less expensive, it is harder to be reliable (because it's easier = for a sudden new use case to outbid the available space), which is less use= ful for a payment mechanism.

If it has better scale (with= the same technology), it will have higher centralization pressure. The hig= her price you potentially pay (in fees) to get your transactions on a small= er block chain is the price of higher security and independence. Perhaps th= e compromise is not at the optimal place, but please stop saying "belo= w what the technology can do". The technology can "do" gigab= yte blocks I'm sure, If you accept that you need a small cluster to kee= p up with validation, and all blocks are produced by a single miner cartel.=

IMHO, Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) on-chain as a paym= ent system is:
* Expensive: there is a (known in advance and = agreed upon) inflation that we're using to pay miners. But by holding B= itcoin you're paying for the security of the system, even if it is not = in fees.
* Unreliable: you never know when suddenly there wil= l be more higher-fee transactions that outbid you.
* Slow, un= less you already trust the sender to not double spend (in which case you do= n't actually need the security of the blockchain).

I don't know the future, and I don't know what use cases w= ill develop and what they'll want to pay or what reliability they need.= But let's please not throw out the one quality that Bitcoin is still g= ood at: lack of centralized parties to trust.

--
Piet= er

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