From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TfVD1-0004il-UA for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:33:15 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.175; envelope-from=pieter.wuille@gmail.com; helo=mail-ob0-f175.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1TfVD1-0007yI-Bb for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:33:15 +0000 Received: by mail-ob0-f175.google.com with SMTP id vb8so2470889obc.34 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 04:33:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.171.16 with SMTP id aq16mr7839546oec.37.1354537989969; Mon, 03 Dec 2012 04:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.143.38 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 04:33:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9CEDE4D4-3685-4F70-953E-15CC50A8AA3F@ceptacle.com> References: <80648682-E34A-455E-B34A-6BC24652C3EA@ceptacle.com> <9CEDE4D4-3685-4F70-953E-15CC50A8AA3F@ceptacle.com> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 13:33:09 +0100 Message-ID: From: Pieter Wuille To: Michael Gronager Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec54d3ef0ba176e04cff1f3f9 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (pieter.wuille[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1TfVD1-0007yI-Bb Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Chain dust mitigation: Demurrage based Chain Vacuuming X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:33:16 -0000 --bcaec54d3ef0ba176e04cff1f3f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Michael Gronager wrote: > > If this were a proposal at the time Bitcoin was created, I would > definitely be in favor, but I feel we can't just change such a policy right > now - it's not what people signed up for when they started using the > system. I also see no way to implement this without a hard fork, which > would require planning at least 1-2 years in advance (imho). By that time, > the economic landscape of Bitcoin may be vastly different, and either dust > spam will have killed it, or we will have found another solution already. > > Bitcoin aka the blockchain is defined by the majority of the miners. This > is what people have signed up to imo. A scheme that a) is of benefit for us > all and b) is also of economical benefit for the miners, will likely be > accepted quite fast - especially now when the bounty was just halved... I > also fear that there is a lot of BTCs that is effectively un-owned and it > could even drive Satoshi to use some of his BTCs ;) I disagree completely. The only power granted to miners is to decide the order of otherwise valid transactions (up to postponing some indefinitely) - they have no ability to control the rules for validity them self In particular, the rules that prevent double spending and (monetary) inflation of the currency are deliberately NOT left to miners. If this were the case, they could just as well vote to keep the 50 BTC block payout, and that would certainly not be what people signed up for. -- Pieter --bcaec54d3ef0ba176e04cff1f3f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Michael Gronager <gronager@ceptacle.co= m> wrote:
> If this were a proposal at the time Bitcoin was crea= ted, I would definitely be in favor, but I feel we can't just change su= ch a policy right now - it's not what people signed up for when they st= arted using the system. I also see no way to implement this without a hard = fork, which would require planning at least 1-2 years in advance (imho). By= that time, the economic landscape of Bitcoin may be vastly different, and = either dust spam will have killed it, or we will have found another solutio= n already.

Bitcoin aka the blockchain is defined by the majority of the miners. = This is what people have signed up to imo. A scheme that a) is of benefit f= or us all and b) is also of economical benefit for the miners, will likely = be accepted quite fast - especially now when the bounty was just halved... = I also fear that there is a lot of BTCs that is effectively un-owned and it= could even drive Satoshi to use some of his BTCs ;)

I disagree completely. The only power granted to miners= is to decide the order of otherwise valid transactions (up to postponing s= ome indefinitely) - they have no ability to control the rules for validity= =A0them self=A0 In particular, the rules that prevent double spending and (= monetary) inflation of the currency are deliberately NOT left to miners. If= this were the case, they could just as well vote to keep the 50 BTC block = payout, and that would certainly not be what people signed up for.

--=A0
Pieter

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