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From: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>
To: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 15:54:47 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAPg+sBi+b46H_4aMccrfUAZKuG2JiY_wyKbDxdJA+jTLKsy51w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABsx9T1rN9j8dkFgEqw6dMYfwht8Z=WEzEObZx11XQ59SF4EiQ@mail.gmail.com>

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On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:12 PM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I would say that things already demonstrately got terrible. The mining
>> landscape is very centralized, with apparently a majority depending on
>> agreements to trust each other's announced blocks without validation.
>>
> And that is a problem... why?
>

If miners need to form alliances of trusting each other's blocks without
validation to overcome the inefficiencies of slow block propagation, I
think we have a system that is in direct conflict with the word
"permissionless" that you use later.


> As Bitcoin grows, pieces of the ecosystem will specialize. Satoshi's
> original code did everything: hashing, block assembly, wallet, consensus,
> network. That is changing, and that is OK.
>

Specialization is perfectly fine.
>
> I believe that if the above would have happened overnight, people would
> have cried wolf. But somehow it happened slow enough, and "things kept
> working".
>
> I don't think that this is a good criterion. Bitcoin can "work" with
> gigabyte blocks today, if everyone uses the same few blockchain validation
> services, the same few online wallets, and mining is done by a cartel that
> only allows joining after signing a contract so they can sue you if you
> create an invalid block. Do you think people will then agree that "things
> got demonstratebly worse"?
>
> Don't turn Bitcoin into something uninteresting, please.
>
Why is what you, personally, find interesting relevant?
>

I find it interesting to build a system that has potential to bring about
innovation.

I understand you want to build an extremely decentralized system, where
> everybody participating trusts nothing except the genesis block hash.
>

That is not true, I'm sorry if that is the impression I gave.

I see centralization and scalability as a trade-off, and for better or for
worse, the block chain only offers one trade-off. I want to see technology
built on top that introduces lower levels of trust than typical fully
centralized systems, while offering increased convenience, speed,
reliability, and scale. I just don't think that all of that can happen on
the lowest layer without hurting everything built on top. We need different
trade-offs, and the blockchain is just one, but a very fundamental one.

I think it is more interesting to build a system that works for hundreds of
> millions of people, with no central point of control and the opportunity
> for ANYBODY to participate at any level. Permission-less innovation is what
> I find interesting.
>

That sounds amazing, but do you think that Bitcoin, as it exists today, can
scale to hundreds of millions of users, while retaining any glimpse of
permission-lessness and decentralization? I think we need low-trust
off-chain systems and other innovations to make that happen.


> And I think the current "demonstrably terrible" Bitcoin system is still
> INCREDIBLY interesting.
>

I'm happy for you, then.

-- 
Pieter

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  reply	other threads:[~2015-08-04 13:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 111+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-07-30 14:25 [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth Pieter Wuille
2015-07-30 15:04 ` Greg Sanders
2015-07-30 15:12 ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 16:23   ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-30 16:36     ` Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 16:43       ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-30 16:36   ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-30 17:51     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 18:00       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 16:56   ` Gary Mulder
2015-07-30 17:13     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-07-30 16:20 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-30 16:41   ` Suhas Daftuar
2015-07-30 16:48   ` Adam Back
2015-07-30 16:49   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-07-31 10:16     ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 11:43       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-31 11:51       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 12:15         ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 13:07           ` Marcel Jamin
2015-07-31 14:33           ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 14:58             ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 15:28               ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-31 20:09               ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-04 10:35               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 11:04                 ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 11:27                   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-04 11:34                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 12:10                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 13:13                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 13:28                         ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 13:42                           ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 17:59                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 13:12                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-04 13:54                       ` Pieter Wuille [this message]
2015-08-04 14:30                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 14:43                         ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 14:45                       ` [bitcoin-dev] " Alex Morcos
2015-08-05  8:14                       ` Gareth Williams
2015-08-04 11:59                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 12:19                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 13:34                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 13:37                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-05  7:29                     ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-06  1:26                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 13:40                         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 14:06                           ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 14:21                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 14:53                               ` Pieter Wuille
     [not found]                                 ` <CABsx9T0B2bZrFHxYR_QNwBmxskQx31zt=QE5BJAYjcOo7wbo3A@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-06 15:24                                   ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 15:26                                     ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 18:43                                       ` Michael Naber
2015-08-06 18:52                                         ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 16:06                                           ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 16:30                                             ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 17:00                                               ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 17:09                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 21:35                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 22:53                                                     ` Adam Back
2015-08-08 16:54                                                       ` Dave Scotese
2015-08-07 17:50                                               ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-07 18:05                                                 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-08-07 18:10                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 21:43                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 22:00                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-06 16:19                                 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Tom Harding
2015-08-06 21:56                               ` Peter Todd
2015-08-06 15:25                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 16:03                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 16:11                               ` Mike Hearn
2015-08-06 17:15                               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 19:42                                 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 20:01                                   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 21:51                                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 23:09                         ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-10 19:28                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-11  5:48                             ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-09 18:46                   ` [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is Tom Harding
2015-08-09 18:54                     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-08-09 20:14                       ` Hector Chu
     [not found]                         ` <CAOG=w-s9KsaPwveSpgdvsVTWUDV77YY7Em7NZGyxSQMMCccYSg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-09 20:48                           ` Hector Chu
2015-08-10  4:48                             ` Joseph Poon
2015-08-10 17:03                         ` odinn
2015-08-10 17:14                           ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-10 17:45                             ` odinn
2015-08-09 21:27                       ` Tom Harding
2015-08-09 21:40                         ` Chris Pacia
2015-08-09 21:45                         ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 21:57                           ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:03                             ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:36                               ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-10  1:52                           ` Tom Harding
2015-08-10  3:31                             ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:06                         ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:09                           ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:27                             ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:30                               ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:44                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-09 22:51                               ` Btc Drak
2015-08-10  8:27                                 ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-10  8:36                                   ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-10  4:39                               ` Joseph Poon
2015-08-10 21:02                               ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-10 21:19                                 ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-10 21:43                                   ` Adam Back
2015-08-11  9:01                                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-11 17:17                                       ` Simon Liu
2015-07-31 14:52           ` [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 17:46   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-02 22:35   ` Anthony Towns
2015-07-30 20:20 ` Thomas Zander

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