From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E46C0052 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D85862BC for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQQpllktxpGY for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ed1-f51.google.com (mail-ed1-f51.google.com [209.85.208.51]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 674DD8628A for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-f51.google.com with SMTP id k1so4222602eds.13 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 05:53:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1dlAUsuyU1fgKfi0y+l1jv7i6AZ719uV7u5VpfF984I=; b=U5kFna1tO7eg3XN11youBAN0+y0O7MXTl2CoxLz0Az38Gm3hHSPRqnbpN2PU9swcXv JmTEm/29WZlW1WfWsCW4xWM0+/XTkygSzElXi9Gz6b0g1e6Nbcb/xcbzODH4YqzKAQD+ EfXiW5pRs2AnzJrc3QQuW4CctH5UDNlSI+xuuV9zCFydlZA2vb61GGB/mZWWfzG6Tj80 HlIImy3Lorjgg0j7qq+xkUuC+52tUh1AzpW/z+43kN23nAXcT1YNQfltjKpEzWkmrXNP W9VpamxVpOi8etIi6i+qr5WFQhxI3hLjedEQY66XCPD+5/TXhQpCPhgTfDCXU8PsS5aP rpAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1dlAUsuyU1fgKfi0y+l1jv7i6AZ719uV7u5VpfF984I=; b=hEEtttfijgtdk/zuDxWfgcKkYxFKLD1M6Mh0yOIaN4myndHNot0cPg+zuAgLDkzLiB IA5IIXHu2hhMGd3hlY7Mhj2LZrpx0G72C4VEY9IgOYAmltl4Rpz3JoMZNq8n/Mis4toC vpszJagmRkBd/7qElrN08xnPZN2Q+ilCGwV/9Iv5VVSfaaNx0a3ygttRAd0+IpMfvuOw hWFmQFZUcYhlxZss4IEa3JRMzxv80ZSTNehPhSZxNS7hifm22OUlazs0+nGZ4QqAzpZ1 EBU7lWogSAKSx1Zrs1NnLGk6TEY0KEHJo9PCnUqgx5SRTD6qB1a4jXVj++b8nvJ1w3az Clow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530DZTYygN6jkrMUOibqycmAchEmuoKpXxFigjck9IkFZHiDoIcN A6THd3C1jLQNK87FScmXYBryX8au/vt7nHojRQ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhST9cU63AJk1fTuzQK+n54dgDgQcp6sMkbBkjTMv5vExICHjIGpDbYoML9H7NsxXfRGtp/kj6A6XHge8eKlk= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d28d:: with SMTP id w13mr28322578edq.15.1606139608819; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 05:53:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ruben Somsen Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:53:15 +0100 Message-ID: To: AdamISZ , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:54:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bulletin boards without selective censorability for bitcoin fungibility markets X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:33 -0000 --000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adam, That's a tricky issue you're trying to tackle. >and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that is too slow and expensive, usually While perhaps not the most easy/practical path to take, it IS possible to create a custom blockchain for this specific purpose to use as a censorship-resistant data layer via Blind Merged Mining: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-December/01753= 4.html Note that while it's not described in detail in my post, there is a (slightly suboptimal) way to do it without a soft fork. And here are more details about the perpetual one-way peg mechanism (needed to pay for fees without introducing speculation): https://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-million-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-= the-perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302 Cheers, Ruben On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original = Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 > On Monday, 23 November 2020 00:40, AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > Canvassing opinions/critiques from those working on bitcoin and related > protocols. > > > > See the attached gist for a write-up of an outline of an idea, which is > conceived for joinmarket but can apply in other scenarios where there is > market for liquidity and in which privacy is a very high priority (hence > 'bitcoin fungibility markets' can certainly include coinswap along with > coinjoin, but possibly other things): > > > > https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b621d6 > > Greg Maxwell pointed out to me on IRC that this idea doesn't work: there > is only a receipt on the commitment to the offer (message) from the maker= , > not on the plaintext version, hence there is nothing stopping the maker > from falsely claiming censorship after not sending the plaintext. > > Reflecting on this a bit more, my intuition is that this problem is much > more difficult than I had hoped; if there is a solution I suspect it > involves much more sophisticated ideas. Many solutions just end up beggin= g > the question by presuming the existence of an uncensorable BB in order to > create a new one; and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that i= s > too slow and expensive, usually. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though = :) > > waxwing > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Adam,

That's a tricky issue you&= #39;re trying to tackle.

>and/or use the blo= ckchain for that function, but that is too slow and expensive, usually
<= /div>

While perhaps not the most easy/practical pa= th to take, it IS possible to create a custom blockchain for this specific = purpose to use as a censorship-resistant data layer via Blind Merged Mining= :

Note= that while it's not described in detail in my post, there is a (slight= ly suboptimal) way to do it without a soft fork.

A= nd here are more details about the perpetual one-way peg mechanism (needed = to pay for fees without introducing speculation):

<= br>
On Mon,= Nov 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
=E2= =80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Messa= ge =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
On Monday, 23 November 2020 00:40, AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@= lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Canvassing opinions/critiques from those working on bitcoin and relate= d protocols.
>
> See the attached gist for a write-up of an outline of an idea, which i= s conceived for joinmarket but can apply in other scenarios where there is = market for liquidity and in which privacy is a very high priority (hence &#= 39;bitcoin fungibility markets' can certainly include coinswap along wi= th coinjoin, but possibly other things):
>
> https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ= /b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b621d6

Greg Maxwell pointed out to me on IRC that this idea doesn't work: ther= e is only a receipt on the commitment to the offer (message) from the maker= , not on the plaintext version, hence there is nothing stopping the maker f= rom falsely claiming censorship after not sending the plaintext.

Reflecting on this a bit more, my intuition is that this problem is much mo= re difficult than I had hoped; if there is a solution I suspect it involves= much more sophisticated ideas. Many solutions just end up begging the ques= tion by presuming the existence of an uncensorable BB in order to create a = new one; and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that is too slow = and expensive, usually. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though :)

waxwing
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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