From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 09:07:08 -0700 Received: from mail-ot1-f62.google.com ([209.85.210.62]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1udWZA-0007kK-4l for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 09:07:08 -0700 Received: by mail-ot1-f62.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-73ea06e389fsf480060a34.2 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1753027622; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=P/fn8oRXlzo4kznhnIMFNtGtMxVc++L8JmxZYb1+QgLefEYFW1dOfU3MdMnuRXcBNc ME7MTHoa25YBUUQj+lJtfgQzgu28Uo9aiF4L5T73QTjD9OwuROQIat61YqBAOHuzjzR6 UGSAGwSCXJyaNyaXngKRS1XZGVqxzSUqG7twtVh/CZ9w1tFGRGWGl9jtBPLGs9/JKoGV OT+0wbuH92TicOREQpstmgNkdMVvH2QPsX/QeUpNgueddaXEzca1KkUs3QRmsuLddz5U L9chDrXbdTrEr0Fy/IUJdHzzlVMG3XqoK88BTv/arQ12rOTx/ImmjLZGZcPijNVMzjdY 19eA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:mime-version:feedback-id :references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date :dkim-signature; bh=DbYK0n2WemRONwWt3QWL+FebImip+x61pM5f3Ct6bA0=; fh=6GpY2hdrgdK/+HPOgNVbSz44D6xLR8nA0IyN49C2A7w=; b=cdZK7FrYmMurcZ+yOAQHBp3ecsN/IgUowYa5utGr/RcvEBrgVNxAQS/zciiYCWMZr3 JvZFnun8QV1pb65AiPJyKnHlEq/hAb3nWthAC7mV12z7NtiiGcvg4ndEHLf0Qjejs2cz jDI4MqN9OCbG/ljU0w+DbYZTFSWRGXSqaYWcc5xTEYIBElIx2EjeHgHTtyFb8QC6xTdI EjGNcY4S+q8wCF+j3m5v6XVOr4pEZ6OEk2ZRiI093zQS8QgeGO40llLZPvToq5ZP1WdP eO2ec3flfLjaka1M72XgrjGT7/4y68yW4UUJhfR/fMIZ11f3I20rWua/6Cw4h3/2OEfb Ibqg==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@proton.me header.s=protonmail header.b=lVZGOHnA; spf=pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 79.135.106.28 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=conduition@proton.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=proton.me DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1753027622; x=1753632422; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:mime-version :feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to :date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DbYK0n2WemRONwWt3QWL+FebImip+x61pM5f3Ct6bA0=; b=n0OvSzajI8E80UibEZ9WsZ7Bp1hKe5uoahrvOvtwez6FBOsibO4Q6qe9Uc7w1uIFDj GAn8nnwAY8fUIYtlcHOCZJKzzc09BxUgRS2ML2VrvFVaxA1Fq7zo10iYc5w+Xj1bZQDd GJEQBA+0bhkJh0St2iEGT13MWjeNnOfIa8ArRkbNvVYnEC0XnZmvu2abmJxZ6b5HxuEO KlqlgGDnWukpmydXEGyc+lK22ie0gOcW3m9YAeHi0ZXp7xOlJ/voQCSr1eEW5SSEa5Hc s+8kvsr+CzlhIRyS3i8mwCZD1Wy2UbM8neYUMGkdVUYwB46wcL6KAvwFjxy7YAyYj8X5 MK7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1753027622; x=1753632422; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:mime-version :feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to :date:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=DbYK0n2WemRONwWt3QWL+FebImip+x61pM5f3Ct6bA0=; b=OtsaBeyiOw3JpNBQjmnIBo1XYmBypdOKbwUMa463JtGtMkA7eY+V1Y3/F6lelFOqnO 5ySfNuk8P3GWtXBNhM8dq2OGaGrl4SrfgoTRFp/oBaKbbQzCkxpPlUGh8Z3DbN91uS8u GASmGViAX4AwmT8yD17jM1zAlWEHP3n35c1wvcn3u2hMYvzzCj9jHPwmb4Da+QqTZkEd rMbvQynkRB4p4dKUpL0iGOXUCPixAsQrorMDXqDT1tlgXn7xnwR8dn+wvO/HWczoCeHS PKa+PJNRiXOuSK+bbGNLY61VltoeC9sAKgPq6fXMeVf4RtYYwI2FFrBfrBu5fqsVDriX AZ4Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVJYKSNMFcAkaJAFlj+sTXXopFXj8l1z0yTkX1KShzK3lddQPoobzHNWcyQtD4vfzXTxC42tbWZodOL@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyvy4vC4XkNDrPmNvR45lQ2QXIT42mEizbG0alBBppNrh5KW3eJ nYhEhDLZBBMAKb4AGF6uNSDKUU1xArCo50/w60kUBqDI3NplWa6n7y3i X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHLV0BoylVnapfUUfcSXyQJ7ErKYaSJDgOurHa/82CVdfPBYn+oRQq/3DyTyGP1aQGAznhJDw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3505:b0:40a:52e5:37df with SMTP id 5614622812f47-41d0594ca9amr14637979b6e.39.1753027621726; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 09:07:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZcDxlRbYXC5ou4PRjrdlAbY82twM6SGtCbHOB+5HF/Ocg== Received: by 2002:a05:6820:2e81:b0:611:a15e:a1e5 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-615ac69b87els728200eaf.1.-pod-prod-07-us; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXbR0UaqG2bTgV6aiTri1JY+6lvDWetEoSB5Wxlm6AnYGhBkLii/3aOYpf49ggqOfKNSQg6WLu78D9S@googlegroups.com X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:306e:b0:41e:1133:fc4b with SMTP id 5614622812f47-41e1133fd66mr8150386b6e.5.1753027617734; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:600c:4192:b0:456:11e5:963 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-4563a9a6eb6ms5e9; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 08:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUAyKCrO5asbfrzgZpHpdZjQoYK2U6W983X9xd1a3EPnlM+72+CzSCz19nLcS+irWOSSXb793M9z1sO@googlegroups.com X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5d0c:0:b0:3a8:30b8:cb93 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3b60dd95a75mr14583411f8f.32.1753027001672; Sun, 20 Jul 2025 08:56:41 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1753027001; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=IpHNKeIXXmXKQ6mUfKw6YUXoYlOXDY+TQRVoqymYl59BMUnDEYwM7Twi7R7E3yNChj 9bhSkzenB8QD91zgPdGKVqQMwUhnGCAZoQb/lo043FTviBMxRa9rFxwJUOYlj9e3oViS Y9SEvCk+XKgp43tz+9zyQdKm0eyPZCOdu0yzX3hLaT05rARzKCe+jOXUDpQGgcElMPhN tppWjJlqpE+sq6j4DWL501EgCCvvhN7i1DHhyakMAU1drSxGnRTZqA37JEaCwzMyD6En yhgxmn24OXxQ3a4tn/Xo2EoK5lwHzLt7mS6am6vMJ5buXZUjxbyg4FSXYaHaiQL5TVje qboQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=mime-version:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject :cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature; bh=FzQ+lnI/PRES+d0LbvY6ISiyiVWqYbVjDYuLPltwG5w=; fh=QMLz8jQdJWyiST9AuSKEKUb1uL4ugeeiWOXbtJFLRTU=; b=FmcmVZEnSNdt4/K80H6OobSqrqDvmRY5JRKpdXhQgUHOZzXeWnpAT4ZdCI00VkJ6sK 5i4cBcx9O9IiU1wFo3EOisMPikvSlPVq3T2ABh3pVPqgjJK576klEUV+vFZCiHeWw1wU fs2vdX/yl2QsOPDMl/IS+c5uyi0v0qkDgvk+5hHwmxOi8UEvwQ5tE5XQBsXmcYd5qWr8 FqPyUjFSeQCDrZLKAUTuRh2k9U0f3TqC4ZqJmGrpPeDkTBOsxj/tdWVEqldT/wp6mlg+ hZLGPp+Zy5wC3YEftPmFUcPN/whCOZS/QJUXR+0tOQJbxb9h0C0Munhd4RA2MMNAxxE+ qsSw==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@proton.me header.s=protonmail header.b=lVZGOHnA; spf=pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 79.135.106.28 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=conduition@proton.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=proton.me Received: from mail-10628.protonmail.ch (mail-10628.protonmail.ch. [79.135.106.28]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-3b61ca2620bsi170146f8f.2.2025.07.20.08.56.41 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 20 Jul 2025 08:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 79.135.106.28 as permitted sender) client-ip=79.135.106.28; Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 15:56:34 +0000 To: Peter Todd From: "'conduition' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Jameson Lopp , Antoine Riard , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: A Post Quantum Migration Proposal Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <37ed2e5d-34cd-4391-84b8-5bcc6d42c617n@googlegroups.com> <4d9ce13e-466d-478b-ab4d-00404c80d620n@googlegroups.com> Feedback-ID: 72003692:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 8cb6efad9ed1798cfb5104ea2d1787d1386505f9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="------77c29632b4c9a4839eea183d6c30d405251962cbcc3d16059852c649f40a6ef2"; charset=utf-8 X-Original-Sender: conduition@proton.me X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@proton.me header.s=protonmail header.b=lVZGOHnA; spf=pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 79.135.106.28 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=conduition@proton.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=proton.me X-Original-From: conduition Reply-To: conduition Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------77c29632b4c9a4839eea183d6c30d405251962cbcc3d16059852c649f40a6ef2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------bca704e9651a2b47ef63a9cac5153add -----------------------bca704e9651a2b47ef63a9cac5153add Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Peter, I think everyone here is well-aware of the possibility that CRQCs may not ever appear, but that doesn't change the fact we must have a plan ready to handle them. Lopp's proposal does exactly that, and in a way that can be rolled out incrementally as the risk increases. And even if CRQCs never break discrete log, we would do well to invest the time in designing this migration path anyway. We'd then have a playbook to handle other sources of cryptanalytic breakthroughs in the future. I think you're worried the community may jump the gun and deploy a freezing upgrade like phases A or B too early. I share your concern but if anything I suspect the opposite will happen. Nobody is going to be willing to freeze anything unless imminent danger is readily apparent, and fear-based reactions kick in. Once it does, things will happen fast, and we need a plan ready for that day (if it comes). regards, conduition On Saturday, July 19th, 2025 at 8:13 AM, Peter Todd wrote: > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 02:52:17PM -0400, Jameson Lopp wrote: > > > Correct, this time is different in that we're not talking about vague > > unknown weaknesses. Rather, we're talking about a known algorithm that > > makes breaking cryptographic primitives orders of magnitude cheaper. > > > We already have known algorithms that would break cryptographic primitives if > sufficiently good analog computers actually existed. Or for that matter, "split > the universe" brute forcing. No-one is worried about them because "sufficiently > good" analog computers and multiverses are widely belived to not be physically > realizable. > > For all the claims of progress on quantum computing hardware, the fact still > remains that no-one is even close to demonstrating cryptographic-relevant > quantum computing capabilities and the actual cryptographic-relevant > capabilities of real hardware are laughable. It's still an unknown whether or > not they are physically possible, and outside of the part of the physics > community that would like to sell you a quantum computer - or research > developing one - they're widely belived to be not physical. > > Hence, these are still vague unknown weaknesses. Until progress is less vague, > actively freezing peoples' coins is not going to happen. > > -- > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aHuKIKqvCZl5rcEX%40petertodd.org. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAgIQP8YXvI8FjDiv0v29pw0VHdrlY6go6QoGMj1qqMsLKfGxeMBWVdxxQ5ZWhzl3T1wxjqj7XsPiRpTlBevo9hiNL92OtIQmMdGBsZaDqg%3D%40proton.me. -----------------------bca704e9651a2b47ef63a9cac5153add Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; filename="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc"; name="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc"; name="publickey - conduition@proton.me - 0x474891AD.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgp4ak1FWkRub0tSWUpLd1lCQkFI YVJ3OEJBUWRBcnBZYWFjZDgwcXdocmNaQW9VbW9NSHNWS21iZWlPZUEKcFhXbk1ybFdPZkxOSzJO dmJtUjFhWFJwYjI1QWNISnZkRzl1TG0xbElEeGpiMjVrZFdsMGFXOXVRSEJ5CmIzUnZiaTV0WlQ3 Q2pBUVFGZ29BUGdXQ1pEbm9LUVFMQ1FjSUNaQjRLV3p0aFBhenhRTVZDQW9FRmdBQwpBUUlaQVFL YkF3SWVBUlloQkVkSWthMENNdHJMZGcxM2EzZ3BiTzJFOXJQRkFBQTZhQUVBM1RmNHdqSVoKYnox K0diS0h4K09WQytNUXlVdi84RStoWUpjTE5QZnA0NEFBLzNiak5OTXN4WHdJTGZEM0xManNVVWFo CitBV2JyblVjVUFqQ2R1d3hUT01LempnRVpEbm9LUklLS3dZQkJBR1hWUUVGQVFFSFFDSXYxZW5J MU5MbAo3Zm55RzlVWk1wQ3ZsdG5vc0JrTmhQUVZxT3BXL3RKSkF3RUlCOEo0QkJnV0NBQXFCWUpr T2VncENaQjQKS1d6dGhQYXp4UUtiREJZaEJFZElrYTBDTXRyTGRnMTNhM2dwYk8yRTlyUEZBQUFR TFFEL2NCR2kwUDdwCkZTTkl2N1B6OVpkeUNVQjhzTy90dWZkV3NjQkNZK2ZMYTV3QkFNK0hTL3Jp S014RGt0TkhLakRGc2EvUgpEVDFxUGNBYXZCaXc2dDZ4Ti9jRgo9Y3d5eAotLS0tLUVORCBQR1Ag UFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCg== -----------------------bca704e9651a2b47ef63a9cac5153add-- --------77c29632b4c9a4839eea183d6c30d405251962cbcc3d16059852c649f40a6ef2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wrsEARYKAG0Fgmh9EaIJkHgpbO2E9rPFRRQAAAAAABwAIHNhbHRAbm90YXRp b25zLm9wZW5wZ3Bqcy5vcmd05sVtEpuBoPg87siOFtVyCxR62wzT5++XTmH8 l/TpRhYhBEdIka0CMtrLdg13a3gpbO2E9rPFAADFNwEA+iep6n35Vw3+MIwf Y0VFeRgA9Z6qYA56jWOqb3dzf7wBAK+cBQdEhYivY9fgoyam51GEx72MMgta po5C7No8QxcA =BCc0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------77c29632b4c9a4839eea183d6c30d405251962cbcc3d16059852c649f40a6ef2--