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[103.168.172.153]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8926c6da1cb9f-4fdd7ed39c2si403429173.6.2025.06.03.10.51.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.153; Received: from phl-compute-05.internal (phl-compute-05.phl.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDF911400F5; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-05.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 13:51:59 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugdekkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpuffr tefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnth hsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjffevgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvden ucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhvohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovhhooh hsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeutefgjeefiefhiefgtdeggeeujedtgfef ffffvdeuudejueffteffuedtjeeiheenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdroh hrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehs jhhorhhssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlhdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepvddpmhhouggvpe hsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhr tghpthhtohepsghithgtohhinhguvghvsehgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 13:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out the garbage(man) From: Sjors Provoost In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 19:51:46 +0200 Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl> To: Peter Todd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm2 header.b=DUJDRsk1; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=I8w1UQU+; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) They can broadcast an expensive signal, i.e. make a statement, with a singl= e block even if nobody builds on it. More cheaply, and perhaps more effective, they could publish a feed of weak= blocks on their social media, containing the hash of each rejected block i= n a coinbase OP_RETURN. They could mine this block for just a few seconds o= r minutes, before resuming to mine on the tip. Even a low success rate could serve as a deterrent to other miners against = including "bad" transactions. Rationally the attack would have to cost abou= t as much as the extra revenue from censored fees, but risk aversion would = probably leverage to this strategy. Of course I'd rather not go down this path. - Sjors=20 > Op 3 jun 2025, om 19:41 heeft Peter Todd het volgend= e geschreven: >=20 > On Tue, Jun 03, 2025 at 08:50:34AM +0200, Sjors Provoost wrote: >> Or people can just spin up more Libre Relay nodes. Both miners and issue= rs of various scam tokens have a monetary incentive to do that. Whereas pro= ponents of filters are (so far) not willing to invest serious money. E.g. w= hen I challenged Luke Dashjr in an earlier post to reorg a single block wit= h spam, he didn't respond [1]. Worse, Ocean proactively offers "Core" [0] t= emplates. Although running a node is cheap, if this becomes an arms race, t= he side that actually spends money has the advantage. >=20 > I need to point out that you're being unfair to Ocean here: with their <1= % hash > power it's damn near impossible for them to reorg blocks. The reason is b= ecause > if there are two blocks at the same height, Bitcoin Core accepts the firs= t > block seen. >=20 > Thus if Ocean wants to reorg a "spam" block out, they need to find not ju= st > one, but two blocks in a row before any other miner finds one. The probab= ility > of that happening is (very) roughly 1% * 1% =3D 0.01% per attempt. Given = that > blocks are worth ~$300k these days, you're asking them to spend tens of > millions of dollars worth of hash power just to reorg out a single block. >=20 > It's not going to happen. >=20 > --=20 > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CC0C1719-662E-4571-97EE-4DC504CC4360%40sprovoost.nl.