From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BF4E491 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:24:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from COL004-OMC1S6.hotmail.com (col004-omc1s6.hotmail.com [65.55.34.16]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 594D0252 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:24:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from COL131-DS21 ([65.55.34.7]) by COL004-OMC1S6.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Wed, 29 Jul 2015 13:24:08 -0700 X-TMN: [NYRZq5EmvOOBsYpmaR329vy2onbqJS4k] X-Originating-Email: [raystonn@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: "Raystonn ." To: "Owen" , "Bitcoin Dev" References: <1B7F00D3-41AE-44BF-818D-EC4EF279DC11@gmail.com> <37D282C2-EF9C-4B8B-91E8-7D613B381824@phauna.org> In-Reply-To: <37D282C2-EF9C-4B8B-91E8-7D613B381824@phauna.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 13:23:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2015 20:24:08.0306 (UTC) FILETIME=[85A95520:01D0CA3C] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, RP_MATCHES_RCVD, STOX_REPLY_TYPE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measureisn't temporary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:24:09 -0000 All of the properties you describe are also properties of many of the alternative blockchains that currently exist. In this space, Bitcoin gives up these advantages. Much like anywhere else where liquidity moves within a system, value will move to the network of least friction. The reality right now is it's very easy to move value from Bitcoin to another blockchain with less friction. Because of this, there will never be a high value settlement network created by an artificially imposed limit on transaction rate. The value will simply bleed out of Bitcoin to alternative blockchains offering lower fees if this is attempted. This is basic economics. -----Original Message----- From: Owen via bitcoin-dev Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 12:56 PM To: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measureisn't temporary On July 29, 2015 7:15:49 AM EDT, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev: >Consider this: the highest Bitcoin tx fees can possibly go is perhaps >a >little higher than what our competition charges. Too much higher than >that, >and people will just say, you know what .... I'll make a bank transfer. >It's cheaper and not much slower, sometimes no slower at all. I respectfully disagree with this analysis. The implication is that bitcoin is merely one of a number of payment technologies. It's much more than that. It's sound money, censorship resistance, personal control over money, programmable money, and more. Without these attributes it's merely a really inefficient way to do payments. Given these advantages, there is no reason to believe the marginal cost of a transaction can't far surpass that of a PayPal or bank transfer. I personally would pay several multiples of the competitors' fees to continue using bitcoin. Sure, some marginal use cases will drop off with greater fees, but that's normal and expected. These will be use cases where the user doesn't care about bitcoin's advantages. We must be willing to let these use cases go anyway, because we unfortunately don't have room on chain for everything anyone might want to do. Therefore, bitcoin tx fees can go much higher than the competition. Remember how Satoshi referenced the banking crisis in his early work? The 2008 banking crisis was about a lot of things, but high credit card and paypal fees wasnt one of them. There's more going on here than just payments. Any speculative economic analysis would do better to include this fact. _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev