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([2600:380:7031:6d39:a1fb:7c32:9a36:499]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 22sm14229442pfu.179.2019.07.06.15.37.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 06 Jul 2019 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5BDE4D26-59D3-454D-BC29-BFDC27E8AB91 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: <16B09501-7AE3-4F8E-A1A4-3E5F6B12D127@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 15:37:45 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <D5C3C588-6A8D-4F9B-A152-AF09C54351C1@voskuil.org> References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <0AA10217-E1CC-46D1-9B43-038CEEF942CD@gmail.com> <E72C4A8E-F850-400B-B19B-7D06B8A169EC@voskuil.org> <A64C3DCB-10CE-45EA-9A1B-7E3D13DF90EA@gmail.com> <6B9A04E2-8EEE-40A0-8B39-64AA0F478CAB@voskuil.org> <SEQmsx6ck79biVthBbBk1b9r9-R45sBwqWrv3FewQIBl4J18sOlwAPRt8sbTIbrBB8DX538GfwQkU40lyODmEkGSwah_VmbXT8iOr2Jcjlw=@protonmail.com> <F17F2E86-BFA4-456E-85F9-0D6583692AEC@voskuil.org> <kSCa9KUmpJox2_aglqhel-WdGlXf14mfKNZ95T4xqsrkQJ2Zh5zFA-Llq-j9cXX87iEPP5_aCkO9oR5kfQGKMBK9ds3Jct1V1FAawwa4CyE=@protonmail.com> <B853EDF2-8A8A-44B0-A66E-F86175E61EDA@voskuil.org> <4mT6iC4Va7Afg15a5NLbddAnF2a_vAcQSXYr_jg_5IyEK2ezblJff7EJZakoqvp4BJlLitt9Zlq1_l5JadR0nVss7VDPW-pv8jXGh7lkFC4=@protonmail.com> <16B09501-7AE3-4F8E-A1A4-3E5F6B12D127@gmail.com> To: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 03:31:26 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 22:37:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail-5BDE4D26-59D3-454D-BC29-BFDC27E8AB91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:12, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 6, 2019, at 01:16, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> wrote: >>=20 >> Good morning Eric, >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>=20 >> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M= essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 >> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 3:27 AM, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:= >>=20 >>>> On Jul 4, 2019, at 21:05, ZmnSCPxj ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com wrote: >>>> Good morning Eric, >>>>=20 >>>>> As with Bitcoin mining, it is the consumed cost that matters in this s= cenario, (i.e., not the hash rate, or in this case the encumbered coin face v= alue). Why would the advertiser not simply be required to burn .1 coin for t= he same privilege, just as miners burn energy? Why would it not make more se= nse to spend that coin in support of the secondary network (e.g. paying for c= onfirmation security), just as with the burning of energy in Bitcoin mining?= >>>=20 >>> Good morning ZmnSCPxj, >>>=20 >>>> Using the unspentness-time of a UTXO allows for someone advertising a s= ervice or producer to "close up shop" by simply spending the advertising UTX= O. >>>> For instance, if the advertisement is for sale of a limited stock of go= ods, once the stock has been sold, the merchant (assuming the merchant used o= wn funds) can simply recover the locked funds, with the potential to reinves= t them elsewhere. >>>> This allows some time-based hedging for the merchant (they may be willi= ng to wait indefinitely for the stock to be sold, but once the stock is sold= , they can immediately reap the rewards of not having their funds locked any= more). >>>=20 >>> This is a materially different concept than proposed by Tamas. >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=9C...he gives up his control of the coins until maturity, he can n= ot use them elsewhere until then.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> Possibly. >> In a way, this is giving up control of the coin, until he no longer needs= the advertisement, i.e. dynamically select the maturity age needed. >>=20 > My proposal would separate the owner of the funds from the one using the a= dvertizement service. No, it would not. I have seen no proposal requiring identity in the two role= s, which is necessary to show that two distinct individuals operate in the r= oles. Furthermore, even identity would be insufficient, as two individuals c= an clearly collude in these roles. > Yes, the owner lock up until maturity. But those using the UTXO for the ad= vertizement service could transfer (sell) the UTXO to someone else as soon a= s they do not need it, so it is dynamic maturity for them The new owner coul= d use them for an other advertizement or for an entirely different purpose. Agree, and it is the unremovable time constraint that ensures the opportunit= y cost. This is why in your proposal it is of no consequence that both roles= can be the same person. > Regarding burning: I think burning is unsustainable as usage of services i= s unlimited while coin suply is limited.=20 Loss is perpetual, so this implies Bitcoin is unsustainable. >>>=20 >>> And as I have shown above, nor can a =E2=80=9Clocked-up=E2=80=9D coin be= unlocked to do the same. >>=20 >> You have shown no such thing, merely shown that you have not understood t= he proposal. >>=20 >> Regards, >> ZmnSCPxj >=20 > I also struggle to communicate to Eric and likely many other reader the ge= neric utility of temporary control of an UTXO. Let me try again: No, you do not. This is not the point at issue. See my previous response. > Bitcoin offers a memory with remarkable properties: > - it can be read by anyone anywhere > - anyone anywhere who knows a key controlling an UTXO, and only them, can i= nitiate an update to the memory > - global replicas guaranteed to apply updates of the memory within a short= time period. >=20 > This is a utility that is sufficient to implement money.=20 No, it isn=E2=80=99t. Ownership must be perpetually (actually) transferable,= not just known. The use of a covenant breaks this transferability, see prev= ious posts. > Such a reliable shared memory could have however more uses than tracking m= oney, It could keep track of, and thereby make scarce, arbitary other things= . For the same reason this cannot work for money, it cannot work for any perpe= tual asset. See previous posts. > We can unlock these uses by separating the money use of memory from other u= ses.=20 >=20 > The covenant achives this separation temporarily. A UTXO with a covenant t= hat guarantees that current owner re-gains control at a later time means,=20= > that the current owner temporarily forgoes the UTXOs use as money and ther= eby allows its temporary use to keep track of something else. Only if the asset expires at or before the covenant maturity. > UTXOs with different covenants or without covenant are not fungible. Of course. > Why use UTXOs of significant value to track something that is not money? B= ecause the reason the registry is used is to create scarcity and scarcity ca= n be tailored to more or > less severe by requiring more or less satoshis to track something. Only 1 satoshi is required for tracking. It is only the scarcity of a satosh= i that creates this scarcity, not the covenant on it. The covenant represent= s only the destruction of opportunity of the value represented by the 1 sato= shi, not a new system of scarcity. > The current owner of a regular UTXO will want to be paid for temporarily g= iving up control, and that payment represents interest. Yes, opportunity cost. > Riskless, since it is certain to re-gain control. But of no value to anyone as money. Best, Eric > Regards, >=20 > Tamas Blummer --Apple-Mail-5BDE4D26-59D3-454D-BC29-BFDC27E8AB91 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:12, Tamas Blummer <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:tamas.blummer@gmail.com">tamas.blummer@gmail.com</a>> wrote= :<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><meta http-equiv=3D= "Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8"><br class=3D""><div><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 6, 2019, at 01:16, Z= mnSCPxj <<a href=3D"mailto:ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com" class=3D"">ZmnSCPxj@p= rotonmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><d= iv class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-s= tyle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing= : normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-s= pace: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none= ; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Good morning Eric,</span><br style= =3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-varian= t-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: sta= rt; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin= g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family= : Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;= font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent= : 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit= -text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fo= nt-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: n= ormal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra= nsform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wi= dth: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px= ; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter= -spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;= white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; flo= at: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Sent with ProtonMail Secur= e Email.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-st= yle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:= normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-sp= ace: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">= <br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo= nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-a= lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wo= rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"= font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ca= ps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; t= ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0p= x; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;"= class=3D"">=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 O= riginal Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80= =90</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: n= ormal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: norma= l; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: n= ormal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span s= tyle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-va= riant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:= start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-sp= acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !im= portant;" class=3D"">On Saturday, July 6, 2019 3:27 AM, Eric Voskuil <</s= pan><a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fon= t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: no= rmal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:= 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:= 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class= =3D"">eric@voskuil.org</a><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1= 2px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; let= ter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: no= ne; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; f= loat: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">> wrote:</span><br st= yle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-var= iant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: s= tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spac= ing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-fami= ly: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: norma= l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inde= nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webk= it-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"fo= nt-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps= : normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-a= lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wi= dows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-= stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Jul 4= , 2019, at 21:05, ZmnSCPxj <a href=3D"mailto:ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com" class=3D= "">ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com</a> wrote:<br class=3D"">Good morning Eric,<br cl= ass=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">As with Bitcoin= mining, it is the consumed cost that matters in this scenario, (i.e., not t= he hash rate, or in this case the encumbered coin face value). Why would the= advertiser not simply be required to burn .1 coin for the same privilege, j= ust as miners burn energy? Why would it not make more sense to spend that co= in in support of the secondary network (e.g. paying for confirmation securit= y), just as with the burning of energy in Bitcoin mining?<br class=3D""></bl= ockquote></blockquote><br class=3D"">Good morning ZmnSCPxj,<br class=3D""><b= r class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Using the unspentness-time= of a UTXO allows for someone advertising a service or producer to "close up= shop" by simply spending the advertising UTXO.<br class=3D"">For instance, i= f the advertisement is for sale of a limited stock of goods, once the stock h= as been sold, the merchant (assuming the merchant used own funds) can simply= recover the locked funds, with the potential to reinvest them elsewhere.<br= class=3D"">This allows some time-based hedging for the merchant (they may b= e willing to wait indefinitely for the stock to be sold, but once the stock i= s sold, they can immediately reap the rewards of not having their funds lock= ed anymore).<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This is a materially d= ifferent concept than proposed by Tamas.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=E2=80= =9C...he gives up his control of the coins until maturity, he can not use th= em elsewhere until then.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"fo= nt-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps= : normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; te= xt-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px= ; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: He= lvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fon= t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p= x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex= t-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Po= ssibly.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-sty= le: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n= ormal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac= e: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><s= pan style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo= nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-a= lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wo= rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inlin= e !important;" class=3D"">In a way, this is giving up control of the coin, u= ntil he no longer needs the advertisement, i.e. dynamically select the matur= ity age needed.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f= ont-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp= acing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; wh= ite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class= =3D""><br></div></blockquote><div>My proposal would separate the owner of th= e funds from the one using the advertizement service.</div></div></div></blo= ckquote><div><br></div><div>No, it would not. I have seen no proposal requir= ing identity in the two roles, which is necessary to show that two distinct i= ndividuals operate in the roles. Furthermore, even identity would be insuffi= cient, as two individuals can clearly collude in these roles.</div><br><bloc= kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div> Yes, the owner lock up unti= l maturity. But those using the UTXO for the advertizement service could tra= nsfer (sell) the UTXO to someone else as soon as they do not need it, so it i= s dynamic maturity for them The new owner could use them for an other advert= izement or for an entirely different purpose.</div></div></div></blockquote>= <div><br></div><div>Agree, and it is the unremovable time constraint that en= sures the opportunity cost. This is why in your proposal it is of no consequ= ence that both roles can be the same person.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci= te"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Regarding burning: I think burning is unsusta= inable as usage of services is unlimited while coin suply is limited. <= /div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Loss is perpetual, so this= implies Bitcoin is unsustainable.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div d= ir=3D"ltr"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockq= uote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-st= yle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:= normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:= none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-si= ze-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">= And as I have shown above, nor can a =E2=80=9Clocked-up=E2=80=9D coin be unl= ocked to do the same.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: H= elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fo= nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0= px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te= xt-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fon= t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: no= rmal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran= sform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid= th: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">You have shown= no such thing, merely shown that you have not understood the proposal.</spa= n><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; f= ont-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-= align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; w= ord-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"f= ont-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-cap= s: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; t= ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0p= x; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: H= elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fo= nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0= px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te= xt-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">R= egards,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-sty= le: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n= ormal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac= e: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><s= pan style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo= nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-a= lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wo= rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inlin= e !important;" class=3D"">ZmnSCPxj</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D= ""><div class=3D"">I also struggle to communicate to Eric and likely many ot= her reader the generic utility of temporary control of an UTXO. Let me try a= gain:</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, you do not. This is no= t the point at issue. See my previous response.</div><br><blockquote type=3D= "cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Bitcoin offers a memory with remarka= ble properties:</div><div class=3D"">- it can be read by anyone anywhere</di= v><div class=3D"">- anyone anywhere who knows a key controlling an UTXO, and= only them, can initiate an update to the memory</div></div></blockquote><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">- global replicas gu= aranteed to apply updates of the memory within a short time period.</div><di= v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a utility that is s= ufficient to implement money. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><= div>No, it isn=E2=80=99t. Ownership must be perpetually (actually) transfera= ble, not just known. The use of a covenant breaks this transferability, see p= revious posts.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas= s=3D"">Such a reliable shared memory could have however more uses than track= ing money, It could keep track of, and thereby make scarce, arbitary other t= hings.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For the same reason this c= annot work for money, it cannot work for any perpetual asset. See previous p= osts.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">We= can unlock these uses by separating the money use of memory from other uses= . </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The covena= nt achives this separation temporarily. A UTXO with a covenant that guarante= es that current owner re-gains control at a later time means, </div><di= v class=3D"">that the current owner temporarily forgoes the UTXOs use as mon= ey and thereby allows its temporary use to keep track of something else.</di= v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only if the asset expires at or bef= ore the covenant maturity.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"lt= r"><div class=3D"">UTXOs with different covenants or without covenant are no= t fungible.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course.</div><br>= <blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Why use UTXOs of s= ignificant value to track something that is not money? Because the reason th= e registry is used is to create scarcity and scarcity can be tailored to mor= e or</div><div class=3D"">less severe by requiring more or less satoshis to t= rack something.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only 1 satoshi i= s required for tracking. It is only the scarcity of a satoshi that creates t= his scarcity, not the covenant on it. The covenant represents only the destr= uction of opportunity of the value represented by the 1 satoshi, not a new s= ystem of scarcity.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c= lass=3D"">The current owner of a regular UTXO will want to be paid for tempo= rarily giving up control, and that payment represents interest.</div></div><= /blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 2= 55, 255, 0);">Yes, opportunity cost.</span></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit= e"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Riskless, since it is certain to re-gain= control.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But of no value to any= one as money.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Eric</div><br><blockq= uote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class= =3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Tamas Blummer</div></div></blockq= uote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-5BDE4D26-59D3-454D-BC29-BFDC27E8AB91--