From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E06489B for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 08:15:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BAC3123 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 2015 08:15:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibcd8 with SMTP id cd8so12607832wib.1 for ; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 01:15:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=user-agent:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:from:date:to:cc :message-id; bh=K5g+Lu+OSmOOy8fELTxbQIy06UIH7tBhzOUKY2qSlmc=; b=xJHlViZ8OuGXVUfSbodaSYN3zYvh8J4urJUDqX1bsiBurUVpgD35CJEyFd9Ujr55EW Yu2Va4aKJRBksSrUg1SiKwaPpzY+/nzHkaSyUbgl6zY8vVvbBfC2GMCDCMHW2T3iBGgi wfpZUhtFfIqZvn/40yRfMxQGoFE1UppYNf09yrGwYNhS/x//vOAE6j77YNLuRHkDFE55 k1lDDqdwLiIZJPWVKxmaPf8CeW/vVXmck03AenQGNmhUm3tZPf1Z8jCLi2JDPR6eH74X nWD1Q7WQLwbEWMM7zGh3VzFCGIZqmdG14rQ6X1ULzLrNK+KT94sDffyTszLaesEdcx6+ dsjQ== X-Received: by 10.194.23.194 with SMTP id o2mr17826133wjf.63.1438762545535; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 01:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.100.150.42] (chomsky.torservers.net. [77.247.181.162]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r19sm6336953wib.7.2015.08.05.01.15.40 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Aug 2015 01:15:44 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Gareth Williams Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2015 18:14:56 +1000 To: Gavin Andresen , Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev , Pieter Wuille Message-ID: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2015 08:15:48 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 4 August 2015 11:12:36 PM AEST, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev wrote: >On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev < >bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> I would say that things already demonstrately got terrible. The >mining >> landscape is very centralized, with apparently a majority depending >on >> agreements to trust each other's announced blocks without validation. >> >And that is a problem... why? With all due respect Gavin, large-block advocates appear to hold the position that: * pushing individual economic actors away from running full nodes is a natural and unproblematic consequence of block size increase, as they're expected to rely on SPV You now also appear to hold the position that: * pushing miners to SPV mining is unproblematic Have I misunderstood? Is one of these not an expected outcome of large blocks? I can understand the validity of either argument alone -- the assertion that we can trust miners to validate and just trust most-POW ourselves, /or/ the assertion that lack of miner validation is safe under certain circumstances. But together? Who do you expect to actually validate large blocks if not miners, and what do you expect their incentive to do so to be? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQFABAEBCgAqBQJVwcYAIxxHYXJldGggV2lsbGlhbXMgPGdhY3J1eEBnbWFpbC5j b20+AAoJEEY5w2E3jkVEEWQH/Aty47q71H/ZcMMX/6qcTpOumI9h/buUfsvYA2H+ J6Al5S8JvCy3/0yMFCLmqolHoxOdWu5jwtUf/w2fepgA1RJyZItFo1EG9cJB0Cpz JgM+2s4L/F3l4+Gea2ddjhvE5JqGS0Qh3EWaR/xy1bouq0FZjtDendmK7vFRj/oS Gowm+g5EFBiT1XwCQQXJc9k0RxzDpPQ0ouSOXWdPUuxfQAjPyX89eQBeQzgVDtEf zVfROZVHQuBu85rKTd32TdCNLQ0oEhAYmwgdtmJyLLgieeqHmNbaikBaVDEOvixn S+fmnfD8CVeeXo5zKdlLZXazc5geRx97H4NMBMjTyjPzR5k= =WG0I -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----