From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0DBC000E for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:55:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972824014B for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:55:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EIUx2Y02l1S6 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:55:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B189E400E7 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:55:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id j3so3216481plx.7 for ; Fri, 09 Jul 2021 07:55:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=LxcVvdx41oYzHhm1194iKNDQNMMmh2666vjvK7Kwpoo=; b=HM0CLWY36CjX0Ew6ue9jhrnyZeagihT9jEVGckm96jDo+LcMgljF5qKQlPY3uCdFek SF/9r8gX0nk3YF3WuqfdYllsDBI3znHcBOh65B/HS7wMIDNAJ+HMWpZCQWSpwJrLitAF hGYq0/uUY3lUKFp9cXsv0RYxUCxJcFhQ+gDH+rhXisMdSy+bcSUlMQ0SkdtI05MO+ywJ Plh/JB4Hlwk8aX/Yf27hE1lGVZtk3Hw0UgaMG1qEpscm9QRx7uByT3XLlO6YOX2oOjfE lZRdRv2Pta/fHVFa87WWQ8gODtrMSbr30SRbgIp5Kz94bPxijg1oGgWpa5LHZHYkjfsl pg4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=LxcVvdx41oYzHhm1194iKNDQNMMmh2666vjvK7Kwpoo=; b=hY43C/90AXMbP8zryCBa6uhujfIFyjOi8Ovi4jasQyR+98wKWYOauFI4UjFQawupAj h190WCpHIYZR+uIMGXA8ba/oJqEdbWszBUvaIeeLJaF3qovFz1QF94Jz+4fFUk8xRcLi 5fdeRyQeAQF2BeiQ8MLg+zuccRpKD38pSyjnzOWqhoJs6NKNNCIMOwS9kSHp6Timo5uN r2IqxvYFllKz2TDCN3FWhJ/AyrP6FYDSVw/V8HPDf2EucBbXTWncPQO3V1Ya6Zjg3Pgy WsZx5wR46FDxka5dQ9VmfF1BD/wAAKo+NepR3pHl6jY0ApwUiZJt61jzsxWWUOBDNmGe I2MA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530g2SUZI2N7UVlon17Jxa/kAAZUnsHyegGyAd8ee3ffwnDwXDWE 1myLVOzQvwHKh80VrCRoa4aEEQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzY3BUQ7FVAVWLww6Nex5061KDq0SYP/17ah9A+YhGywervpNciOHG4tMZraKuXMdRC8QOlNQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:304e:b029:11d:75ff:c304 with SMTP id u14-20020a170903304eb029011d75ffc304mr31050818pla.33.1625842515998; Fri, 09 Jul 2021 07:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2601:600:9c00:1d0::7844]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c24sm6646868pfn.86.2021.07.09.07.55.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Jul 2021 07:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Eric Voskuil Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 07:55:14 -0700 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Billy Tetrud , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18F72) Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 14:55:17 -0000 > On Jul 7, 2021, at 01:20, Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev wrote: > But people can certainly pull their money out of companies that can't show= solvency.=20 As I pointed out previously there is an unsupportable leap being made here b= etween a vault (money warehouse) and any company (including a bank). A company cannot possibly show that it has all of the money that every perso= n has invested into it. At times a solvent company may even have zero cash. I= t is also not possible for a company provide cryptographic proof of its many= necessarily non-crypto assets and liabilities. What is presumed here is a c= ommunity-verified sort of crypto balance sheet, with no considerations of ri= sk - a central aspect of business. As I said, if you want a vault, you can just use your own wallet. Solvency d= oes not in any way imply 100% cash balance of the amounts invested. Raising m= oney under such terms is pointless for both company and investors (the owner= s of the company). > > Nonsense, any business can fail, regardless of temporal cash reserves. >=20 > I agree that any business can fail. But a bank that pretends it can serve c= ash on demand is not a normal business, Banks (lending institutions) do not operate under any such pretense. US bank= s require 7 day time deposits for all interest bearing accounts (read your d= epositor agreement), and it should be clear that your uninsured balance is a= t risk. Banks are investment funds, not money warehouses (in Rothbard=E2=80=99= s terminology). With a 100% of investment cash hoard, there is zero lending and zero return.= This is true for all business. > and cash reserves absolutely relate to their ability to survive as a bank.= =E2=80=9Crelate to=E2=80=9D is a far cry from 100% =E2=80=9Creserve=E2=80=9D= . At 100% reserve an investment fund would most certainly fail. At 20% it wo= uld fail. Money markets (banks without a reserve requirement) don=E2=80=99t b= reak the buck, compete effectively with banks with reserve requirements (req= uired by the taxpayer who is insuring deposits and providing discount credit= ), and maintain around 10% reserve. This is consistent with a world of peopl= e with time preference that creates around a 10% interest rate (return on in= vestment). > Its honestly confusing to me how you could think otherwise. It=E2=80=99s confusing to me how anyone would put money into a business and e= xpect (even want) it to sit there. > Also, calling my thoughts "nonsense" is rude, please check yourself, Eric.= =20 Check myself? Nonsense is English for =E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t make sense=E2= =80=9D. It=E2=80=99s not an insult. e=