From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4GBH-0002D0-Ex for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:15:07 +0000 Received: from cedivad.com ([85.17.190.162]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1Z4GBE-0008PX-PJ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:15:07 +0000 Received: from email (unknown [1.1.1.1]) by cedivad.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B895D61235 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:14:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cedivad.com Received: from cedivad.com ([1.1.1.1]) by email (cedivad.com [1.1.1.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id XTvbRjDUEFiB for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:14:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [1.1.1.105] (host152-51-static.25-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it [87.25.51.152]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by cedivad.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0CBD61219 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:14:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Davide Cavion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F0637553-D1AF-43F6-8B80-6F2FAC030D4E" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 00:14:43 +0200 References: <557DEA54.30200@AndySchroder.com> To: Bitcoin Dev In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.5 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1Z4GBE-0008PX-PJ Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:15:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F0637553-D1AF-43F6-8B80-6F2FAC030D4E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I just wanted to let everyone know that every email is also archived at = bitcoin-development.narkive.com = , where you can find everything = since the beginning of the list (June 2011). That should answer to = Andy=E2=80=99s concern about the older messages not being archived = anywhere but on sourceforge. Davide > On 14 Jun 2015, at 23:59, Adam Back wrote: >=20 > It might be as well to keep the archive but disable new posts as > otherwise we create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on > sourceforge. >=20 > The list is also archived on mail-archive though. > = https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/ >=20 > Adam >=20 > On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder wrote: >> Hello, >>=20 >> I'd support moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also = against >> google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates that = SourceForge >> is not playing nice on other issues and that moving this list shows = their >> behavior is being acknowledged. >>=20 >> I understand your reason for wanting to delete the Source Forge = account >> (after reading the links). However, the only problem with that is = that the >> SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some early = messages >> from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after its inception, as well as = this >> mailing list even later on, it's nice to be able to review the = archives. >> SourceForge's interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm = not sure >> if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites like = gmane or >> mail-archive? Does anyone know? You mentioned importing the list = archive as >> part of the migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from = SourceForge? >>=20 >>=20 >> Andy Schroder >>=20 >> On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote: >>=20 >> Discomfort with Sourceforge >>=20 >> For a while now people have been expressing concern about = Sourceforge's >> continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.=C3=82 Downloads = were moved >> completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the = SF >> project account.=C3=82 The company's behavior and perceived = stability have been >> growing to be increasingly questionable. >>=20 >>=20 >> = http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_= ads_and_installer >>=20 >> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer >>=20 >> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/ >>=20 >> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads >>=20 >> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194 >>=20 >> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads. >>=20 >>=20 >> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most = people >> agreed it would be a good idea to move.=C3=82 Someone always = suggests Google >> Groups as the replacement host.=C3=82 Google is quickly shot down as = too >> controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more = difficult >> question as to who else should host it.=C3=82 Realizing this is not = so simple, >> discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up. >>=20 >>=20 >> = http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/194312= 7.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607 >>=20 >> Somebody brought it up again this past week. >>=20 >>=20 >> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to = continue >> to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t = much they could do to screw it >> up.=C3=82 I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a = gesture that >> we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.=C3=82 There are = also some >> benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to = professionally >> maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the = content. >>=20 >>=20 >> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity >>=20 >>=20 >> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would = be >> politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs = to >> host due to questions it would raise about perceived political = control.=C3=82 >> For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the >> inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure = and >> dev list under their own name.=C3=82 Even if what they published was = 100% >> technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in = our >> dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to = appearances >> and it would have easily gone nowhere. >>=20 >>=20 >> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was >> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to = be a >> generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can = build upon >> and use.=C3=82 We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that = already host >> various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or = the >> Linux Foundation.=C3=82 Google is too controversial in this = community, and the >> IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.=C3=82 The Linux = Foundation >> hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the = Open >> Source industry considers them to be particularly objectionable.=C3=82 = I talked >> with LF about the idea of hosting generic Bitcoin-related = infrastructure >> development lists.=C3=82 They agreed as OSS infrastructure dev is = already within >> their charter, so early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting = there. >>=20 >>=20 >> =46rom the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems = like a great >> fit.=C3=82 Why?=C3=82 While they are interested in supporting = general open source >> development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.=C3=82 In = addition to >> neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.=C3=82 They = have >> full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the = Mailman >> server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means mailing = lists >> would benefit from the improved archive browser.=C3=82 I am not = personally >> familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable = non-profit >> entity who will competently maintain and improve things like their = Mailman >> deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).=C3=82 = It seems >> that LF would be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the >> long-term. >>=20 >>=20 >> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion = list.=C3=82 The >> LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single = entity >> should. >>=20 >>=20 >> Proposed Action Plan >>=20 >>=20 >> Discuss this openly within this community.=C3=82 Above is one = example of a great >> neutral and competent host.=C3=82 If the technical leaders here can = agree to >> move to a particular neutral host then we do it. >>=20 >> Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.=C3=82 = We import >> the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user = convenience. >>=20 >> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ =C3=82 Kill bitcoin-list = and >> bitcoin-test.=C3=82 Very few people actually use it.=C3=82 = Actually, let's delete >> the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence = serves no >> purpose and it only confuses people who find it.=C3=82 By deletion, = nobody has >> to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or = GIMP-type >> hijacking? >>=20 >> The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing = the >> subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a = tendency to >> upset people. >>=20 >>=20 >> Thoughts? >>=20 >>=20 >> Warren Togami >>=20 >>=20 >> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>=20 >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --Apple-Mail=_F0637553-D1AF-43F6-8B80-6F2FAC030D4E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

I = just wanted to let everyone know that every email is also archived = at bitcoin-development.narkive.com, where you can find = everything since the beginning of the list (June 2011). That should = answer to Andy=E2=80=99s concern about the older messages not being = archived anywhere but on sourceforge.

Davide


On 14 Jun 2015, at 23:59, Adam = Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:

It might be as well = to keep the archive but disable new posts as
otherwise we = create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on
sourceforge.

The list is also = archived on mail-archive though.
https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo= rge.net/

Adam

On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder = <info@andyschroder.com> wrote:
Hello,

I'd support = moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also against
google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates = that SourceForge
is not playing nice on other issues and = that moving this list shows their
behavior is being = acknowledged.

I understand your reason for = wanting to delete the Source Forge account
(after reading = the links). However, the only problem with that is that the
SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some = early messages
from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after = its inception, as well as this
mailing list even later on, = it's nice to be able to review the archives.
SourceForge's = interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm not sure
if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites = like gmane or
mail-archive? Does anyone know? You = mentioned importing the list archive as
part of the = migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from SourceForge?


Andy Schroder

On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:

Discomfort with Sourceforge

For a while now people have been expressing concern about = Sourceforge's
continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing = list.=C3=82  Downloads were moved
completely to = bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
project account.=C3=82  The company's behavior and = perceived stability have been
growing to be increasingly = questionable.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_= over_dodgy_ads_and_installer

November 2013: = GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer

https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/

May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows = downloads

http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194

June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and = downloads.


When this topic = came up over the past two years, it seemed that most people
agreed it would be a good idea to move.=C3=82  Someone = always suggests Google
Groups as the replacement host.=C3=82=  Google is quickly shot down as too
controversial in = this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
question as to who else should host it.=C3=82  Realizing = this is not so simple,
discussion then dies off until the = next time somebody brings it up.


http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/th= read/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607

Somebody brought it up again this past week.


It seems logical that an open discussion list = is not a big deal to continue
to be hosted on Sourceforge, = as there isn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t much they could do to screw it
up.=C3=82  I personally think moving it away now would = be seen as a gesture that
we do not consider their = behavior to be acceptable.=C3=82  There are also some
benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to = professionally
maintain their infrastructure while also = being neutral to the content.


Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent = Entity


Bitcoin is a global = infrastructure development project where it would be
politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies = or orgs to
host due to questions it would raise about = perceived political control.=C3=82
For example, consider a = bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
inventor of = Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
dev list under their own name.=C3=82  Even if what they = published was 100%
technically and ideologically = equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
dimension, most = people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
and it would have easily gone nowhere.


I had a similar thought process last week when = sidechains code was
approaching release. Sidechains, like = Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a
generic piece of = infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon
and use.=C3=82  We thought about Google Groups or = existing orgs that already host
various open source = infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
Linux = Foundation.=C3=82  Google is too controversial in this community, = and the
IETF is seen as possibly too politically = fractured.=C3=82  The Linux Foundation
hosts a bunch = of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the Open
Source industry considers them to be particularly = objectionable.=C3=82  I talked
with LF about the idea = of hosting generic Bitcoin-related infrastructure
development lists.=C3=82  They agreed as OSS = infrastructure dev is already within
their charter, so = early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting there.

=46rom the perspective of our community, for = bitcoin-dev it seems like a great
fit.=C3=82  Why?=C3=82=  While they are interested in supporting general open source
development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.=C3=82 =  In addition to
neutrality, they seem to be suitable = as a competent host.=C3=82  They have
full-time = sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman
server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means = mailing lists
would benefit from the improved archive = browser.=C3=82  I am not personally
familiar with = HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-profit
entity who will competently maintain and improve things like = their Mailman
deployment (a huge improvement over the = stagnant Sourceforge).=C3=82  It seems
that LF would = be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the
long-term.


To be = clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.=C3=82 =  The
LF would have no control over the Bitcoin = Project, as no single entity
should.


Proposed Action Plan


Discuss this openly within this community.=C3=82=  Above is one example of a great
neutral and = competent host.=C3=82  If the technical leaders here can agree = to
move to a particular neutral host then we do it.

Migration: The current list admins become the = new list admins.=C3=82  We import
the entire list = archive into the new host's archives for user convenience.

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ =C3=82= Kill bitcoin-list and
bitcoin-test.=C3=82  Very few = people actually use it.=C3=82  Actually, let's delete
the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued = existence serves no
purpose and it only confuses people = who find it.=C3=82  By deletion, nobody has
to = monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or = GIMP-type
hijacking?

The = toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the
subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have = a tendency to
upset people.

Thoughts?


Warren = Togami


---------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------



_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen= t



---------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------

_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen= t


---------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen= t

= --Apple-Mail=_F0637553-D1AF-43F6-8B80-6F2FAC030D4E--