From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65576BD1 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:21:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:59 by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from smtp-out01.mutu.shrd.fr (smtp-out01.mutu.shrd.fr [194.187.224.13]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1D4E0 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:21:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from www02.mutu.shrd.fr (www02.mutu.shrd.fr [194.187.224.16]) by smtp-out01.mutu.shrd.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423E7C0D3; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www02.mutu.shrd.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3584832F4B9; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:33 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at www02.mutu.shrd.fr Received: from www02.mutu.shrd.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (www02.mutu.shrd.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JlOOcQ7IjMRv; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.0.3.253] (unknown [194.187.225.181]) (Authenticated sender: lists@benappy.com) by www02.mutu.shrd.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 115F032F47D; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:20 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.1 \(3445.4.7\)) From: Michel 'ic' Luczak In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:18 +0100 Message-Id: References: To: Jameson Lopp , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.4.7) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,URIBL_RED autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:32:46 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:21:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, This is the first time I post on this list. First of all, Thank you Jameson for the interview you gave yesterday, = it=E2=80=99s been a model of calm and self-control for all of us. I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right now are = mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware (ledger & = trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the market. I personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain = with less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a day. I think there=E2=80=99s a lot of work to do in used education to make = them understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a = transaction confirmed and that=E2=80=99s the POS=E2=80=99 work to make = sure the transaction is legit. Regards, Michel. > On 21 Dec 2017, at 23:02, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >=20 > I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high volume = senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by batching = transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be the case = for providers that pass transaction fees along to their users. >=20 > We've been trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding = efficient use of block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we = break down the cost savings of implementing a new technique, it = generally helps to hasten their adoption. I suspect that in many cases = this is an issue of education - we should be more proactive in calling = out inefficient uses of block space. >=20 > Good resources to bookmark and share: >=20 > = https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by= -batching-payments-4147ab7009fb = >=20 > = https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c= 788598 = >=20 > - Jameson >=20 > On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev = > wrote: > I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the = long term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been = that fees would replace the block reward. >=20 > At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have = now reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon >=20 > https://fork.lol/reward/feepct >=20 > While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think = there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for = some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve. >=20 > Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point >=20 > http://segwit.party/charts/ >=20 > Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though = it's quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder = if this is of concern to some. >=20 > https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h = >=20 > I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. = Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be = interesting to hear thoughts. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

This = is the first time I post on this list.

First of all, Thank you Jameson for the = interview you gave yesterday, it=E2=80=99s been a model of calm and = self-control for all of us.

I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right = now are mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware = (ledger & trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the = market.

I = personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain with = less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a = day.

I think = there=E2=80=99s a lot of work to do in used education to make them = understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a = transaction confirmed and that=E2=80=99s the POS=E2=80=99 work to make = sure the transaction is legit.

Regards, Michel.

On 21 = Dec 2017, at 23:02, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high = volume senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by = batching transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be = the case for providers that pass transaction fees along to their = users.

We've been = trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding efficient use of = block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we break down the cost = savings of implementing a new technique, it generally helps to hasten = their adoption. I suspect that in many cases this is an issue of = education - we should be more proactive in calling out inefficient uses = of block space.

Good resources to bookmark and share:

https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transact= ion-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb

https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-= fees-a9e24c788598

- Jameson

On Thu, = Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> = wrote:
I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain = would be secured in the long term, once the reward goes away.  The = base idea has always been that fees would replace the block reward.

At that time fees were approximately 10% = of the block reward, but have now reached 45%, with 50% potentially = being crossed soon

https://fork.lol/reward/feepct

While this bodes well for the long term security of the = coin, I think there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is = prohibitive for some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.

Observations of segwit adoption show = around 10% at this point

http://segwit.party/charts/

Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a = peak, though it's quite possible this will come down over the long = weekend.  I wonder if this is of concern to some.

https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h

I = thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI.  = Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be = interesting to hear thoughts.

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bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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