From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D38C002D for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 17:43:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0EA40904 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 17:43:04 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 2C0EA40904 Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=77FwkLTC X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hi6ERis4CnTe for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 17:43:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org A1E4F408F4 Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1E4F408F4 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 17:43:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 72so3025298pge.0 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :cc:to; bh=XJ/A9h5zKQ7JKS7JyD6QnUZBu+cYf479SM31jEbyXrU=; b=77FwkLTCGJkbpXCm5LmKRWbpK3JNdGxtVPXPIrOXlUDWc3nmJhWrOOxsadS+S/YRDc IT7R3eYeHvj0d7nq6D4SfPB9OvlS5TIG2TKIw1f+6KbqOwwspF8Z/0wjoy5Ry32gaFly kh7s6v1O8RpRQ00mXFiuy9FZB+ZiFyeVfT6kuKvyexrfwqhugY366R6UMYvfNvZmGYef vmmktsHNLV5OhEIflHn58DMDugS+OIKGB+xB4njIA53YtNRBKmo4KfVGUUHCYcJ7XK/E DKNBU6tUsb9WKsRhYHnsdFqvLlqfAhKfJuIZoQ08eg9PWl3CmXC8XjqLgSJ4G5wcVAQU bBwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=XJ/A9h5zKQ7JKS7JyD6QnUZBu+cYf479SM31jEbyXrU=; b=PeFk50/uZMc++AdPy98XpYa5dixL6DtaCvIU9Uq7GrpjFda2eA8WsOjrfv+h9zbq4E kwItOFbyNFG5NuBzVpx52bAxPlkxfI6QnZq6YNd2YeyH8WN156vjZpWLWK90hckft1rd sWphrhbtHZdVhuYcygrA39OCDk9GJKZ9v5hNO9YziI+Raf8e2mPFvkjzIZfblott4ELc jln0x+AegkEVddQgtrgJ1vrHOwsGaOmvWiYVZ/GTV9r61/3+tXX6oFTMI+UMX1h4P84R jp6G3WilRZ5M6Zg6eazNngO2q4UNnyKKjx4EmlAO5/RWKQSawC7u9A3+XYr64JTTK8t0 XQiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/PnKTVCZhgWTdTxt1NXdHm43WCOpspTRmBvRGXxN7qfFtP0mkb 8vGO64sZTzLiv2hUNAktzj+nJg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1v6vb1UyoNITg2EedVUto9oo0Wj+RqWSIfA0CBnVm9hS1z2TGzY06ywRUDFyA2eFy/zSDdKuw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4a0b:0:b0:40d:d4c1:131f with SMTP id x11-20020a634a0b000000b0040dd4c1131fmr11983530pga.242.1657474981976; Sun, 10 Jul 2022 10:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:380:7042:731b:b459:b441:974c:2171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z19-20020a170903409300b001675d843332sm2995215plc.63.2022.07.10.10.43.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 10 Jul 2022 10:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Eric Voskuil Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 10:42:59 -0700 To: alicexbt X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19F77) Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 17:43:04 -0000 =EF=BB=BF > On Jul 10, 2022, at 07:17, alicexbt wrote: > =EF=BB=BFHi ZmnSCPxj, >=20 >=20 >> Thus, we should instead prepare for a future where the block subsidy must= be removed, possibly before the existing schedule removes it, in case a maj= ority coalition of miner ever decides to censor particular transactions with= out community consensus. >> Fortunately forcing the block subsidy to 0 is a softfork and thus easier t= o deploy. >=20 > `consensus.nSubsidyHalvingInterval` for mainnet in [chainparams.cpp][1] ca= n be decreased to 195000. This will reduce the number of halvings from 34 to= 14 and subsidy will be 0 when it becomes less than 0.01 although not sure i= f this will be a soft fork. Soft fork, though a bit aggressive, as it would invalidate all existing bloc= ks above the first new halving height block which claimed more than the redu= ced reward. Increasing the value would be a hard fork, as it would validate blocks that w= ould previously have been invalid, as opposed to a soft fork, which invalida= tes blocks that would previously have been valid. e > I doubt there will be consensus for it because all the [projections and pr= edictability][2] about bitcoin(currency) would be affected by this change. M= aybe everyone can agree with this change if most of the miners start being '= compliant' like one of the coinjoin implementation. >=20 > [1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/chainparams.cpp#L6= 6 > [2]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply >=20 >=20 > /dev/fd0 >=20 > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. >=20 > ------- Original Message ------- > On Saturday, July 9th, 2022 at 9:59 PM, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Good morning e, and list, >>=20 >>> Yet you posted several links which made that specific correlation, to wh= ich I was responding. >>> Math cannot prove how much coin is =E2=80=9Clost=E2=80=9D, and even if i= t was provable that the amount of coin lost converges to the amount produced= , it is of no consequence - for the reasons I=E2=80=99ve already pointed out= . The amount of market production has no impact on market price, just as it d= oes not with any other good. >>> The reason to object to perpetual issuance is the impact on censorship r= esistance, not on price. >>=20 >>=20 >> To clarify about censorship resistance and perpetual issuance ("tail emis= sion"): >>=20 >> * Suppose I have two blockchains, one with a constant block subsidy, and o= ne which had a block subsidy but the block subsidy has become negligible or z= ero. >> * Now consider a censoring miner. >> * If the miner rejects particular transactions (i.e. "censors") the miner= loses out on the fees of those transactions. >> * Presumably, the miner does this because it gains other benefits from th= e censorship, economically equal or better to the earnings lost. >> * If the blockchain had a block subsidy, then the loss the miner incurs i= s small relative to the total earnings of each block. >> * If the blockchain had 0 block subsidy, then the loss the miner incurs i= s large relative to the total earnings of each block. >> * Thus, in the latter situation, the external benefit the miner gains fro= m the censorship has to be proportionately larger than in the first situatio= n. >>=20 >> Basically, the block subsidy is a market distortion: the block subsidy er= odes the value of held coins to pay for the security of coins being moved. >> But the block subsidy is still issued whether or not coins being moved ar= e censored or not censored. >> Thus, there is no incentive, considering only the block subsidy, to not c= ensor coin movements. >> Only per-transaction fees have an incentive to not censor coin movements.= >>=20 >>=20 >> Thus, we should instead prepare for a future where the block subsidy must= be removed, possibly before the existing schedule removes it, in case a maj= ority coalition of miner ever decides to censor particular transactions with= out community consensus. >> Fortunately forcing the block subsidy to 0 is a softfork and thus easier t= o deploy. >>=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> ZmnSCPxj >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev