From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6071FC000B for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4973940A7D for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cg7wfOugBO4Z for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-40135.protonmail.ch (mail-40135.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.135]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD3D940A2E for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:05 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1647442452; bh=sDvL03Ia4RJ9lik0tan09kltnN4VHwwlTbZ7O8jhJ0E=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=f5WtANVit2bSAyuQEuQBEEg9VKwQqTWUFQRNlsCLLPbiqWkjn2lg8u2+qYg/7BhCR mD7GsvS1OLnyTBUP7sy0lKL5OLnurfr0SPAvnjGrMvtlMdjVtyNHOBFBusA8PVzwQZ Sq5Wg3smfgXKzgcxBySfdDzjvOHGycMxjQcdk4lPS3vVUzrP2Lqq/XR1d4hvud42iJ R6gQQrK2dsvmOtakSP0+In75pmfXXLsEgYDoPW3vIr3W6zKZqR1bdZwvgXG9Rf5JwJ WRHhfK1cmQerecHowIyk7Uypl4cWZluTpwYB3WdECqq2CNVsLQDZUbJBeLQO2ECUn/ 9aVquVF6GelbQ== To: Anthony Towns From: ZmnSCPxj Reply-To: ZmnSCPxj Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20220311044645.GB7597@erisian.com.au> References: <20220311044645.GB7597@erisian.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Bram Cohen Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin scripting and lisp X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:17 -0000 Good morning aj et al., > On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 03:06:43AM +0000, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > > > They're radically different approaches and > > > > it's hard to see how they mix. Everything in lisp is completely san= dboxed, > > > > and that functionality is important to a lot of things, and it's re= ally > > > > normal to be given a reveal of a scriptpubkey and be able to rely o= n your > > > > parsing of it. > > > > The above prevents combining puzzles/solutions from multiple coin s= pends, > > > > but I don't think that's very attractive in bitcoin's context, the = way > > > > it is for chia. I don't think it loses much else? > > > > But cross-input signature aggregation is a nice-to-have we want for= Bitcoin, and, to me, cross-input sigagg is not much different from cross-i= nput puzzle/solution compression. > > Signature aggregation has a lot more maths and crypto involved than > reversible compression of puzzles/solutions. I was more meaning > cross-transaction relationships rather than cross-input ones though. My point is that in the past we were willing to discuss the complicated cry= pto math around cross-input sigagg in order to save bytes, so it seems to m= e that cross-input compression of puzzles/solutions at least merits a discu= ssion, since it would require a lot less heavy crypto math, and *also* save= bytes. > > > I /think/ the compression hook would be to allow you to have the puzz= les > > > be (re)generated via another lisp program if that was more efficient > > > than just listing them out. But I assume it would be turtles, err, > > > lisp all the way down, no special C functions like with jets. > > > Eh, you could use Common LISP or a recent-enough RnRS Scheme to write= a cryptocurrency node software, so "special C function" seems to overprivi= lege C... > > Jets are "special" in so far as they are costed differently at the > consensus level than the equivalent pure/jetless simplicity code that > they replace. Whether they're written in C or something else isn't the > important part. > > By comparison, generating lisp code with lisp code in chia doesn't get > special treatment. Hmm, what exactly do you mean here? If I have a shorter piece of code that expands to a larger piece of code be= cause metaprogramming, is it considered the same cost as the larger piece o= f code (even if not all parts of the larger piece of code are executed, e.g= . branches)? Or is the cost simply proportional to the number of operations actually exe= cuted? I think there are two costs here: * Cost of bytes to transmit over the network. * Cost of CPU load. Over here in Bitcoin we have been mostly conflating the two, to the point t= hat Taproot even eliminates unexecuted branches from being transmitted over= the network so that bytes transmitted is approximately equal to opcodes ex= ecuted. It seems to me that lisp-generating-lisp compression would reduce the cost = of bytes transmitted, but increase the CPU load (first the metaprogram runs= , and *then* the produced program runs). > (You could also use jets in a way that doesn't impact consensus just > to make your node software more efficient in the normal case -- perhaps > via a JIT compiler that sees common expressions in the blockchain and > optimises them eg) I believe that is relevant in the other thread about Jets that I and Billy = forked off from `OP_FOLD`? Over in that thread, we seem to have largely split jets into two types: * Consensus-critical jets which need a softfork but reduce the weight of th= e jetted code (and which are invisible to pre-softfork nodes). * Non-consensus-critical jets which only need relay change and reduces byte= s sent, but keeps the weight of the jetted code. It seems to me that lisp-generating-lisp compression would roughly fall int= o the "non-consensus-critical jets", roughly. > On Wed, Mar 09, 2022 at 02:30:34PM +0000, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > Do note that PTLCs remain more space-efficient though, so forget about = HTLCs and just use PTLCs. > > Note that PTLCs aren't really Chia-friendly, both because chia doesn't > have secp256k1 operations in the first place, but also because you can't > do a scriptless-script because the information you need to extract > is lost when signatures are non-interactively aggregated via BLS -- > so that adds an expensive extra ECC operation rather than reusing an > op you're already paying for (scriptless script PTLCs) or just adding > a cheap hash operation (HTLCs). > > (Pretty sure Chia could do (=3D PTLC (pubkey_for_exp PREIMAGE)) for > preimage reveal of BLS PTLCs, but that wouldn't be compatible with > bitcoin secp256k1 PTLCs. You could sha256 the PTLC to save a few bytes, > but I think given how much a sha256 opcode costs in Chia, that that > would actually be more expensive?) > > None of that applies to a bitcoin implementation that doesn't switch to > BLS signatures though. Not being a mathist, I have absolutely no idea, but: at least as I understo= od from the original mimblewimble.txt from Voldemort, BLS signatures had an= additional assumption, which I *think* means "theoretically less secure th= an SECP256K1 Schnorr / ECDSA". Is my understanding correct? And if so, how theoretical would that be? PTLC signatures have the very nice property of being indistinguishable from= non-PTLC signatures to anyone without the adaptor, and I think privacy-by-= default should be what we encourage. > > > But if they're fully baked into the scriptpubkey then they're opted i= nto by the recipient and there aren't any weird surprises. > > > This is really what I kinda object to. > > > Yes, "buyer beware", but consider that as the covenant complexity inc= reases, the probability of bugs, intentional or not, sneaking in, increases= as well. > > > And a bug is really "a weird surprise" --- xref TheDAO incident. > > Which is better: a bug in the complicated script code specified for > implementing eltoo in a BOLT; or a bug in the BIP/implementation of a > new sighash feature designed to make it easy to implement eltoo, that's > been soft-forked into consensus? > > Seems to me, that it's always better to have the bug be at the wallet > level, since that can be fixed by upgrading individual wallet software. Good point. Though I should note that BIP-118 was originally proposed with a 5-line pat= ch, so --- > I'm not sure that a "covenant language implementation" would necessarily > be "that" complicated. And if so, having a DSL for covenants could, > at least in theory, make for a much simpler implementation of > ANYPREVOUT/CTV/TLUV/EVICT/etc than doing it directly in C++, which > might mean those things are less likely to have "weird surprises" rather > than more. DSLs? Domain-specific languages? Do you know how many people hate autoconf? That is because autoconf is secretly an embedded DSL in a really obscure la= nguage called `m4`. Some of the `autoconf` weirdnesses are due precisely to having to hack `m4`= to make it look nicer, like that weird rule to use double `[[` and `]]` qu= otes around sections of program source code. Yes, it means we can have a nice `autoconf-archive`, but the actual code in= side that archive? People *making*`autoconf` macros have to learn both `m4` and the existing `= autoconf` macro ecosystem. Then there is BluespecSV. Bluespec used to be an embedded DSL inside Haskell. Nobody wanted it because they had to learn *two* languages, Haskell, and Bl= uespec. Eventually they created BluespecSV, which was a language with completely se= parate grammar and tokens from Haskell, instead of embedded in it, and Blue= spec was finally *actually* used in production. But the damage was done: people who do digital hardware design tend to *bri= stle* when they hear the word "Haskell", because of all the horrible embedd= ed DSLs in Haskell (Bluespec was just one, but I have heard of a few others= which never managed to jump from being more than a lab toy, including a cu= te one where the on-FPGA layout of the circuit was part of the construction= of the circuit description). Embedded DSLs are cute, but they require learning two languages, not a sing= le new one. Just say no to embedded DSLs! Ah, much better. This seems to me to be not much different from adding a separate compiler, = which translates from the surface language to the underlying opcode/lisp la= nguage, with similar risks: now you have *another* bit of indirection to au= dit. It feels like building a perpetual-motion machine, where we keep adding mor= e stuff in the hope of reducing the complexity. Regards, ZmnSCPxj