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[79.135.106.28]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a640c23a62f3a-ae3f69554afsi24243966b.2.2025.07.07.14.47.02 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 07 Jul 2025 14:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 79.135.106.28 as permitted sender) client-ip=79.135.106.28; Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 21:46:58 +0000 To: Antoine Riard From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Make pathological transactions with more than 2500 legacy signature operations non-standard Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <49dyqqkf5NqGlGdinp6SELIoxzE_ONh3UIj6-EB8S804Id5yROq-b1uGK8DUru66eIlWuhb5R3nhRRutwuYjemiuOOBS2FQ4KWDnEh0wLuA=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: 7060259:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 008dd40f9e52cdb8e01dbbc162fa667cd6781fa0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1=_RE0OxZ6QIzp8CQcGmjlOuM5VMR5CWaZvNBgKVmxJHo" X-Original-Sender: darosior@protonmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=jdS3gC7d; spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 79.135.106.28 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com X-Original-From: Antoine Poinsot Reply-To: Antoine Poinsot Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --b1=_RE0OxZ6QIzp8CQcGmjlOuM5VMR5CWaZvNBgKVmxJHo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This limit only concerns legacy signature operations. Off-chain constructio= ns use Segwit inputs, as they would be trivially broken by txid malleabilit= y otherwise. On Friday, July 4th, 2025 at 10:38 AM, Antoine Riard wrote: > Hi Poinsot, > > Thanks for the collection of historical txn hitting the proposed new limi= t. > > The only long-term downside coming immediately out of mind, if the rule b= ecomes consensus > in the future, it's the implicit limitation it would make on the multi-pa= rty dimensions > of off-chain constructions. In the past, I made really rough math for 100= 0-sized participants > payments pools, where for the funding_tx, you have the 1000 participants = contributing > one input with one sig for each [0]. > > In my understanding the new limit of 2500 signatures operation would make= a hard-limit > for the number of participants entering in such construction, without oth= er tricks that > are consuming more block space. One can note the downside on funding tx o= f high-order > off-chain construction, if a max tx size consensus limit is introduced in= the future. > > Of course, I do not deny the DoS rational of introducing the 2500 sig lim= it and it's > very needed. At the same time, we should be careful of not closing too mu= ch doors for > future off-chain constructions and long-term tx throughput scalability. > > I do believe, it's always technically possible in the future to introduce= new opcode > or segwit versions scripts (e.g grafroot or entroot-based pool constructi= on), which > wouldn't be subject to the new limit, and as such more scalable. If I'm c= orrect, I > think it's all about how the limit is implemented to parse current script= s to be > spent. > > But it's hard to say without code available to review and reason. May I k= indly note > there is no reference implementation attached in the current BIP54 docume= nt [1]. Even, > if it's often updated, it's always fruitful to have code under the eyes f= or review. > > This might be the kind of concern (very) far down the line...but preservi= ng the > evolvability of the consensus rules is a good property to care about, in = my humble > opinion. > > Best, > Riard > OTS hash: a2bb9a1faf79309b039d8ae7e0b951644ca0adb2 > > [0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E+eKKtOXd-8A6oThw-1i5cJ4h12Tu= G8tnWswqbfAnRdA@mail.gmail.com/ > [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0054.md > > Le mercredi 2 juillet 2025 =C3=A0 09:54:33 UTC+1, Antoine Poinsot a =C3= =A9crit : > >> Hi everyone, >> >> To mitigate high block validation time, BIP54 proposes to make transacti= ons which require more than >> 2500 legacy signature operations invalid by consensus. The 2500 figure w= as chosen as the tightest >> value that did not make any non-pathological currently standard transact= ion invalid. >> >> No transaction in Bitcoin's history would have both hit the BIP54 sigop = limit and been standard >> according to today's Bitcoin Core policy[^0]. But what happened in the p= ast doesn't matter as much >> as the fact that it is possible today to create a pathological standard = transaction that is >> BIP54-invalid. >> >> This opens up a major DoS vector against unupgraded miners if BIP54 ever= gets activated in these >> conditions. Therefore i propose to make such transactions non-standard a= nd hold off activation of >> BIP54 until we have good reasons to believe that the vast majority of th= e hashrate won't create a >> block containing such a transaction. >> >> Doing so gives better guarantees in case BIP54 is ever considered for ac= tivation, and comes at >> virtually no cost since these pathological transactions have never been = used and serve no purpose >> beyond increasing the cost of validation. Bitcoin Core PR #32521 impleme= nts this change, which i >> hope to get into the upcoming 30.0 release as well as backported to prev= ious versions. >> >> Best, >> Antoine Poinsot >> >> [^0]: Here the full list of historical transactions that would have hit = the BIP54 sigops limit: >> - 659135664894e50040830edb516a76f704fd2be409ecd8d1ea9916c002ab28a2 >> - bea1c2b87fee95a203c5b5d9f3e5d0f472385c34cb5af02d0560aab973169683 >> - 24b16a13c972522241b65fbb83d09d4bc02ceb33487f41d1f2f620b047307179 >> - 53666009e036171b1aee099bc9cd3cb551969a53315410d13ad5390b8b4f3bd0 >> - ffc178be118bc2f9eaf016d1c942aec18441a6c5ec17c9d92d1da7962f0479f6 >> - 2f1654561297114e434c4aea5ca715e4e3f10be0be8c1c9db2b6f68ea76dae09 >> - 62fc8d091a7c597783981f00b889d72d24ad5e3e224dbe1c2a317aabef89217e >> - d939315b180d3d73b5e316eb57a18f8137a3f5943aef21a811660d25f1080a3f >> - 8a6bfaa78828a81147e4848372d491aa4e9048631982a670ad3a61402a4ec327 >> - 02cc78789cc070125817189ec378daa750355c8b22bbce982ed96aa549facb1f >> - b97a16ae2e8ae2a804ed7965373b42055f811653f4628e4bef999145d4b593bc >> - 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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= MAx6mRL1iR7e7zNHtWs39IvM2y0rSJQxLZEEyic_LAcA-QzuuursCSRH8zuTaqum8rMXYFdyJZO= 6wGcX5dRP7gyx8iwZNgjFP5VDNxYEJLw%3D%40protonmail.com. --b1=_RE0OxZ6QIzp8CQcGmjlOuM5VMR5CWaZvNBgKVmxJHo Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This limit = only concerns legacy signature operations. Off-chain constructions use Segw= it inputs, as they would be trivially broken by txid malleability otherwise= .
=20
=20
=20
On Friday, July 4th, 2025 at 10:38 AM, Antoine Riard <antoine.ri= ard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Poinsot,

Thanks for the collection of historical txn = hitting the proposed new limit.

The only long-term downside coming i= mmediately out of mind, if the rule becomes consensus
in the future, it'= s the implicit limitation it would make on the multi-party dimensions
of= off-chain constructions. In the past, I made really rough math for 1000-si= zed participants
payments pools, where for the funding_tx, you have the = 1000 participants contributing
one input with one sig for each [0].
=
In my understanding the new limit of 2500 signatures operation would ma= ke a hard-limit
for the number of participants entering in such construc= tion, without other tricks that
are consuming more block space. One can = note the downside on funding tx of high-order
off-chain construction, if= a max tx size consensus limit is introduced in the future.

Of cours= e, I do not deny the DoS rational of introducing the 2500 sig limit and it'= s
very needed. At the same time, we should be careful of not closing too= much doors for
future off-chain constructions and long-term tx throughp= ut scalability.

I do believe, it's always technically possible in th= e future to introduce new opcode
or segwit versions scripts (e.g grafroo= t or entroot-based pool construction), which
wouldn't be subject to the = new limit, and as such more scalable. If I'm correct, I
think it's all a= bout how the limit is implemented to parse current scripts to be
spent.<= br>
But it's hard to say without code available to review and reason. Ma= y I kindly note
there is no reference implementation attached in the cur= rent BIP54 document [1]. Even,
if it's often updated, it's always fruitf= ul to have code under the eyes for review.

This might be the kind of= concern (very) far down the line...but preserving the
evolvability of t= he consensus rules is a good property to care about, in my humble
opinio= n.

Best,
Riard
OTS hash: a2bb9a1faf79309b039d8ae7e0b951644ca0a= db2

[0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E+eKKtOXd-8A6oThw-1i= 5cJ4h12TuG8tnWswqbfAnRdA@mail.gmail.com/
[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/= bips/blob/master/bip-0054.md

Le mercredi 2 juillet 2025 =C3=A0 09:54:33 UTC+1= , Antoine Poinsot a =C3=A9crit :
Hi everyone,

To mitigate high block validation time, BIP54 proposes to make transact= ions which require more than
2500 legacy signature operations invalid by consensus. The 2500 figure = was chosen as the tightest
value that did not make any non-pathological currently standard transac= tion invalid.

No transaction in Bitcoin's history would have both hit the BIP54 sigop= limit and been standard
according to today's Bitcoin Core policy[^0]. But what happened in the = past doesn't matter as much
as the fact that it is possible today to create a pathological standard= transaction that is
BIP54-invalid.

This opens up a major DoS vector against unupgraded miners if BIP54 eve= r gets activated in these
conditions. Therefore i propose to make such transactions non-standard = and hold off activation of
BIP54 until we have good reasons to believe that the vast majority of t= he hashrate won't create a
block containing such a transaction.

Doing so gives better guarantees in case BIP54 is ever considered for a= ctivation, and comes at
virtually no cost since these pathological transactions have never been= used and serve no purpose
beyond increasing the cost of validation. Bitcoin Core PR #32521 implem= ents this change, which i
hope to get into the upcoming 30.0 release as well as backported to pre= vious versions.

Best,
Antoine Poinsot

[^0]: Here the full list of historical transactions that would have hit= the BIP54 sigops limit:
- 659135664894e50040830edb516a76f704fd2be409ecd8d1ea9916c002ab28a2
- bea1c2b87fee95a203c5b5d9f3e5d0f472385c34cb5af02d0560aab973169683
- 24b16a13c972522241b65fbb83d09d4bc02ceb33487f41d1f2f620b047307179
- 53666009e036171b1aee099bc9cd3cb551969a53315410d13ad5390b8b4f3bd0
- ffc178be118bc2f9eaf016d1c942aec18441a6c5ec17c9d92d1da7962f0479f6
- 2f1654561297114e434c4aea5ca715e4e3f10be0be8c1c9db2b6f68ea76dae09
- 62fc8d091a7c597783981f00b889d72d24ad5e3e224dbe1c2a317aabef89217e
- d939315b180d3d73b5e316eb57a18f8137a3f5943aef21a811660d25f1080a3f
- 8a6bfaa78828a81147e4848372d491aa4e9048631982a670ad3a61402a4ec327
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