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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jim, The variable block sizes would not, as I understand it, be easily implement= ed by a solo miner. You are right, there is presently nothing stopping a miner from ordering th= e transactions included by a priority that is not entirely based on the fee= . It may be possible to verify blocks conform to the proposal by showing that= the probability for all transactions included in the block statistically c= onform to a probability distribution curve, if that is necessary and, *if*= the individual transaction priority can be recreated. I am not that deep i= nto the mathematics, however, it may also be possible to use a similar meth= od to do this just based on the fee, that statistically, the blocks conform= to a fee distribution. Needs a clever mathematician. It is certainly possible to verify that blocks conform to the expected size= . Honour is why people follow policy without enforcement. I may be in the wro= ng group. (sic) Regards, Damian Williamson ________________________________ From: bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org on behalf of Jim Renkel via bitcoin-dev Sent: Wednesday, 6 December 2017 4:18:11 PM To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: UTWFOTIB - Use Transaction Weight = For Ordering Transactions In Blocks As i understand it, the transactions to be included in a block are entirely= up to the miner of that block. What prevents a miner from implementing the proposal on their own? If this is adopted as some kind of "policy", what forces a miner to follow = it? Jim Renkel On 12/2/2017 10:07 PM, Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev wrote: # BIP Proposal: UTWFOTIB - Use Transaction Weight For Ordering Transactions= In Blocks I admit, with my limited experience in the operation of the protocol, the s= ection entitled 'Solution operation' may not be entirely correct but you wi= ll get the idea. If I have it wrong, please correct it back to the list. ## The problem: Everybody wants value. Miners want to maximize revenue from fees. Consumers= want transaction reliability and, (we presume) low fees. Current transaction bandwidth limit is a limiting factor for both. ## Solution summary: Provide each transaction with a transaction weight, being a function of the= fee paid (on a curve), and the time waiting in the transaction pool (also = on a curve) out to n days (n=3D30 ?); the transaction weight serving as the= likelihood of a transaction being included in the current block, and then = use a target block size. Protocol enforcement to prevent high or low blocksize cheating to be handle= d by having the protocol determine the target size for the current block us= ing; current transaction pool size x ( 1 / (144 x n days ) ) =3D transactio= ns to be included in the current block. The curves used for the weight of transactions would have to be appropriate= . ## Pros: * Maximizes transaction reliability. * Maximizes possibility for consumer and business uptake. * Maximizes total fees paid per block without reducing reliability; because= of reliability, confidence and uptake are greater; therefore, more transac= tions and more transactions total at priority fees. * Market determines fee paid for transaction priority. * Fee recommendations work all the way out to 30 days or greater. * Provides additional block entropy and greater security since there is les= s probability of predicting the next block. ## Cons: * ? * Must be first be programmed. * Anything else? ## Solution operation: As I have said, my simplistic view of the operation. If I have this wrong, = please correct it back to the list. 1. The protocol determines the target block size. 2. Assign each transaction in the pool a transaction weight based on fee an= d time waiting in the transaction pool. 3. Begin selecting transactions to include in the current block using trans= action weight as the likelihood of inclusion until target block size is met= . 4. Solve block. Regards, Damian Williamson _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --_000_PS2P216MB0179FC2174F0F9BFAA324F169D330PS2P216MB0179KORP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Jim,


The variable block sizes would no= t, as I understand it, be easily implemented by a solo miner.


You are right, there is presently= nothing stopping a miner from ordering the transactions included by a prio= rity that is not entirely based on the fee.


It may be possible to verif= y blocks conform to the proposal by showing that the probability for all tr= ansactions included in the block statistically conform to a probability dis= tribution curve, if that is necessary and,  *if* the individual transaction priority can be recreated. I am= not that deep into the mathematics, however, it may also be possible to us= e a similar method to do this just based on the fee, that statistically, th= e blocks conform to a fee distribution. Needs a clever mathematician.


It is certainly possible to= verify that blocks conform to the expected size.


Honour is why people follow= policy without enforcement. I may be in the wrong group. (sic)


Regards,

Damian Williamson

From: bitcoin-dev-bounces@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org&= gt; on behalf of Jim Renkel via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoun= dation.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 December 2017 4:18:11 PM
To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: UTWFOTIB - Use Transaction = Weight For Ordering Transactions In Blocks
 

As i understand it, the transactions to be included in a block are entir= ely up to the miner of that block.


What prevents a miner from implementing the proposal on their own?


If this is adopted as some kind of "policy", what forces a min= er to follow it?

Jim Renkel
On 12/2/2017 10:07 PM, Damian Williamson v= ia bitcoin-dev wrote:

# BIP Proposal: UTWFOTIB - Use T= ransaction Weight For Ordering Transactions In Blocks


I admit, with my limited experience in the operation of the protocol, the s= ection entitled 'Solution operation' may not be entirely correct but you wi= ll get the idea. If I have it wrong, please correct it back to the list.

## The problem:


Everybody wants value. Miners wa= nt to maximize revenue from fees. Consumers want transaction reliability an= d, (we presume) low fees.


Current transaction bandwidth limit is a limiting factor for both.

## Solution summary:


Provide each transaction with a = transaction weight, being a function of the fee paid (on a curve), and the = time waiting in the transaction pool (also on a curve) out to n days (n=3D3= 0 ?); the transaction weight serving as the likelihood of a transaction being included in the current block, an= d then use a target block size.


Protocol enforcement to prevent high or low blocksize cheating to be handle= d by having the protocol determine the target size for the current block us= ing; current transaction pool size x ( 1 / (144 x n days ) ) =3D transactio= ns to be included in the current block.

The curves used for the weight of transactions would have to be appropriate= .

## Pros:


* Maximizes transaction reliability.
* Maximizes possibility for consumer and business uptake.
* Maximizes total fees paid per block without reducing reliability; because= of reliability, confidence and uptake are greater; therefore, more transac= tions and more transactions total at priority fees.
* Market determines fee paid for transaction priority.

* Fee recommendations work all t= he way out to 30 days or greater.

* Provides additional block entropy and greater security since there is les= s probability of predicting the next block.

## Cons:


* ?
* Must be first be programmed.
* Anything else?

## Solution operation:


As I have said, my simplistic vi= ew of the operation. If I have this wrong, please correct it back to the li= st.


1. The protocol determines the target block size.

2. Assign each transaction in th= e pool a transaction weight based on fee and time waiting in the transactio= n pool.

3. Begin selecting transactions = to include in the current block using transaction weight as the likelihood = of inclusion until target block size is met.

4. Solve block.

Regards,

Damian Williamson



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