From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB5FC0001 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBAE448DF1 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZeBAY7K1T6mS for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from APC01-SG2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sg2apc01olkn0801.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:febd::801]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AB5E48CE3 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:27 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=etAapcebJIiTQ32aWqJ++vykZmiNcIaKS1B5RdGOLgE/HF6lnfdcgyou2urn0Salto0iiqu1ZQTkXS4Mh7nisg63GqhLZgsPixnVuCeo6bITz4cQkrDJZLCL9MN3bssnX1crQjyAWBGybgIuoGX9ehJEk427+KJVQ8CA85hxpBItLhCxHPHAeCLhp7lloiT+vWEyr8xVhXaBWWFXhrwy4prt8AAfsdqaz2xTVJbfOBWsDNZxfoBxlOUY49QB5Ul3pEa49drESz6VM9hRmpaKqEMvzioTXjzg6va+CRhCGMWY7/LXUX0sp98nLFih2x/NZI42+sUxGIEguinZ44kpIw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tc81VrZmz9npnkUtmVCN+BpXo00g3L0g6qS9lysy7bA=; b=UEQi7z9kUYfodOUaG2wUEOq2Ipc8S2BsmLE18zGqXnkc0uAGR6lhriitBcdQspjVU2vG3WVE8tWIbB+PjmotLUMSZJfn9Rmtbvv4R0VfvpYcJJDDmULlITG0V5puuBQg1Bzk8dkKxkyvtmVHsg1oX3uyeYipbK+wn1ttulPwHp0BV3xPXvecNsIirZccbHibbAAjM0gBZP+Y89hSA5Ft1a0xzIDEhnAXfkLua/eXShSAkc/xdiYQ1ymuOheXsR/AhCsMsUy4DXusDBS8mZIbIEmNBKTqGxIs87vi4CCisDGl+UrxCMgkRD4VxRHv3iBGvUFLkK/eQOYi9H1YZk7rRA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none Received: from HK2APC01FT032.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7ebc::42) by HK2APC01HT021.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7ebc::353) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3933.31; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:00 +0000 Received: from PS2P216MB0914.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2a01:111:e400:7ebc::4f) by HK2APC01FT032.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7ebc::188) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3933.31 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:00 +0000 Received: from PS2P216MB0914.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::dd49:6c2d:8e1e:f4a8]) by PS2P216MB0914.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::dd49:6c2d:8e1e:f4a8%2]) with mapi id 15.20.3933.032; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:00 +0000 From: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH To: Devrandom , Lonero Foundation , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining Thread-Index: AQHXEaN0qHP0IAKD20C5nhMAX68+PKp1Z3UAgAAeNK+AAAzJgIAN50gf Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:A7E49EDD1331A597FACD710368490F0C6BAA892282A961F64ACF00F754497A48; UpperCasedChecksum:A2A5D4EF36E760571C6A292040EF8BD625830D6028EF0E594348D057AF496DC4; SizeAsReceived:7418; Count:44 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [CK2GU2MsgBaa6G5SwUSjy48IGr5BV+oS] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 44 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 853cf818-36d1-4552-fe8e-08d8e6e5b944 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HK2APC01HT021: x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: OSLkrAr6kIRasLDjJBDaLGq0Q7Z5upfhFGOq+IZ65/3pc6WVA7weMjKk8Yu5OyOhjxKq53oXI6Kj1fIqO/kDP62N3Yjy7GIsv9yVIEiLRL7SpeXB+L/t6fYDAlsYY+77dVEcTtRgsLk6RY/PCHMxLtiAyZbexHEKsZJzUNbgjhNKLpzELLmLxo00mHOW3XdPiFOYxDIH77QyzJHS8bADP1LuTbtVrQ96bVpr2FaDsG3eqhfXQQ4TB+MblgJAZxygEgcONmN7+j0mvOktqCWFPucOSopMG+9v9IxRTSzG+qkF1nDIWnhmTkF4XfwnTW0YIjJJYqfcFcnkP/uV6OhW0IMbcrjP3mQYGis3waMqQ8x9DD7Du/ApzC0vMVLjpvG9y0T/j2693L+pZ3KY26mlMpyQFguKyR/g7ttfFLeyFgj5FsTV1x/wXjz4vWNRL67Q x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: jWvfR+QQVJeoulb1HxXCLe0dQO7To7lt1VstEwsUo24k4/MLPTy7S4/FkVusS2QMKez5MWZ8xbVgXJKB+S9YmkawlSrboSO3LB4y6FmyYbt6NYYA5nh8qwLvgD0BSCIot4+AyeF7+kFxB89LyLnlYA== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_PS2P216MB0914F0B05E1AAB48D9A765609D6D9PS2P216MB0914KORP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HK2APC01FT032.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 853cf818-36d1-4552-fe8e-08d8e6e5b944 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Mar 2021 12:36:00.2451 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT021 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:40:47 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:36:30 -0000 --_000_PS2P216MB0914F0B05E1AAB48D9A765609D6D9PS2P216MB0914KORP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Afternoon, It is obvious that something needs to be done to curtail the current cost o= f mining in kWh per block. I understand proposals are rejected because it i= s considered censorship and Bitcoin has a consensus to allow anyone to mine= but, since mining requires specific hardware and energy requirements it is= already a form of censorship where most on the planet except for the top 6= % I am guessing here, cannot afford to mine. Without affecting the current = algorithm, I have previously begun to explore the process by which mining c= an be turned into a lottery with only authorized payto addresses able to mi= ne valid blocks, since transaction fees and block rewards exist to pay the = miner. It would be better even if the algorithms are improved if there are = some ways that only a subset of miners can produce valid blocks for any giv= en period, say for 12 months with four groups starting three months apart t= o transition, and maybe limit mining to 50 people per continent to produce = valid blocks at any one time. Possibly this requires a consortium to overse= e the lottery but it is something Bitcoin can handle themselves, and would = do better to handle than to wait for government intervention as we have see= n previously in China where power was too cheap Bitcoin was banned entirely= . KING JAMES HRMH Great British Empire Regards, The Australian LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire MR. Damian A. James Williamson Wills et al. Willtech www.willtech.com.au www.go-overt.com and other projects earn.com/willtech linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson m. 0487135719 f. +61261470192 This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this emai= l if misdelivered. ________________________________ From: bitcoin-dev on behalf= of Lonero Foundation via bitcoin-dev Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2021 3:16 AM To: Devrandom Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Datasto= re for Energy Efficient Mining Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate that my cryptography= proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also tackles problems su= ch as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the BTC network could b= e vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do want to do this= BIP because it tackles lots of the issues in regards to this manner and ca= n provide useful insight to the community. If things such as bigger block h= eight have been proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very least an upgrade= regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptography does at least warrant som= e discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my BIP, just let me know on the= preferred format? Best regards, Andrew On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Lonero Foundation > wrote: Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to renewables= or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the most out of y= our hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness of it, but do= want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki format on GitHub= and just attach it as my proposal? Best regards, Andrew On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom > wrote: Hi Ryan and Andrew, On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev > wrote: https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/ "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work" on | 04 Aug 2015 Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining market w= ill tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward. It does not prove= that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost. Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and tha= t we should move to other resources. I would argue that the negative exter= nalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the point = is likely moot. --_000_PS2P216MB0914F0B05E1AAB48D9A765609D6D9PS2P216MB0914KORP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good Aftern= oon,

It is obvious that something needs to be done to curtail the current cost o= f mining in kWh per block. I understand proposals are rejected because it i= s considered censorship and Bitcoin has a consensus to allow anyone to mine= but, since mining requires specific hardware and energy requirements it is already a form of censorship where = most on the planet except for the top 6% I am guessing here, cannot afford = to mine. Without affecting the current algorithm, I have previously begun t= o explore the process by which mining can be turned into a lottery with only authorized payto addresses able to = mine valid blocks, since transaction fees and block rewards exist to pay th= e miner. It would be better even if the algorithms are improved if there ar= e some ways that only a subset of miners can produce valid blocks for any given period, say for 12 months wi= th four groups starting three months apart to transition, and maybe limit m= ining to 50 people per continent to produce valid blocks at any one time. P= ossibly this requires a consortium to oversee the lottery but it is something Bitcoin can handle themselves, = and would do better to handle than to wait for government intervention as w= e have seen previously in China where power was too cheap Bitcoin was banne= d entirely.

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.

 
Willtech
and other projects
 
earn.com/willtech
linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson


m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


This email = does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
From: bitcoin-dev <bit= coin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Lonero Foundati= on via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2021 3:16 AM
To: Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox.net>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundatio= n.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST = Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining
 
Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate th= at my cryptography proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also t= ackles problems such as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the B= TC network could be vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do want to do this BIP because it= tackles lots of the issues in regards to this manner and can provide usefu= l insight to the community. If things such as bigger block height have been= proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very least an upgrade regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptogra= phy does at least warrant some discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my= BIP, just let me know on the preferred format?

Best regards, Andrew

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Loner= o Foundation <loneroassoc= iation@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in reg= ards to renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get= the most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrari= ness of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki format on GitHub and just attach it as= my proposal?

Best regards, Andrew

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devra= ndom <c1.devrandom@niftybox.net> wrote:
Hi Ryan and Andrew,

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan= Grant via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin= -dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

  https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
    "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
    on | 04 Aug 2015


Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining mar= ket will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward.  It does= not prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.

Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities an= d that we should move to other resources.  I would argue that the nega= tive externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so = the point is likely moot. 

--_000_PS2P216MB0914F0B05E1AAB48D9A765609D6D9PS2P216MB0914KORP_--