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[79.135.106.99]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2adb3069b0e04-5aa7b8f4bf6si96143e87.1.2026.06.03.16.12.20 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 03 Jun 2026 16:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 79.135.106.99 as permitted sender) client-ip=79.135.106.99; Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2026 23:12:15 +0000 To: "bitcoindev@googlegroups.com" From: "'conduition' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Subject: [bitcoindev] Aligning privacy incentives in P2MR Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 72003692:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 6797cdb1e40af3a5329a47b52b0ec266b8b9d216 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="------ca12257782717bd1f513f5b9d001eaec50b136ce96670d26c8b644af02c2ba23"; charset=utf-8 X-Original-Sender: conduition@proton.me X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@proton.me header.s=624qjmanmzcytaextdsj2bug6i.protonmail header.b=R3S46xiS; spf=pass (google.com: domain of conduition@proton.me designates 79.135.106.99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=conduition@proton.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=proton.me X-Original-From: conduition Reply-To: conduition Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------ca12257782717bd1f513f5b9d001eaec50b136ce96670d26c8b644af02c2ba23 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------375742e166234baf338823c085eeb67c -----------------------375742e166234baf338823c085eeb67c Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary=---------------------d0153f078c563da7d177120237475cf6 -----------------------d0153f078c563da7d177120237475cf6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi list. I'm following up on an idea I sketched in=C2=A0this thread debatin= g P2MR vs P2TRv2.=C2=A0 The premise is this: What if we modified this line of BIP360: > The last stack element is called the control block c, and must have lengt= h 1 + 32 * m, for a value of m that is an integer between 0 and 128, inclus= ive. Fail if it does not have such a length. To this: > The last stack element is called the control block c, and must have lengt= h 1 + 32 * m, for a value of m that is an integer between=C2=A01=C2=A0and 1= 28, inclusive. Fail if it does not have such a length. The key change is that the control block must now include at least one merk= le authentication path. This effectively bans depth-zero script trees in P2= MR, and requires every P2MR address to always pay the cost of having at lea= st two spending conditions. This seems like a reduction in P2MR's features and efficiency. Why would we= want to ban depth-zero script trees?=C2=A0Well these seem to be the source= of a perverse incentive, as pointed out by Matt Corallo and Antoine Poinso= t in=C2=A0prior threads. Bitcoin script users are economically and practica= lly incentivized by P2MR to use depth-zero script trees because their witne= sses are smaller than if the same script were used in a taproot script spen= d. Furthermore, depending on the exact scripts and the developers' resources, = devs using P2MR for a multi-party scripting protocol may not be sufficientl= y incentivized to add a cooperative spending path, even if their protocol m= ight allow it. Doing so would require a depth-1 tree, which increases the w= itness size of the non-cooperative script spend path by 32 bytes. For some = short scripts, e.g ` CLTV CHECKSIG`, the devs may actually= have incentive not to add a cooperative spending path, because the coopera= tive path would actually be less-efficient than just using the non-cooperat= ive path as the single leaf of a depth-zero tree.=C2=A0This leads to easy f= ingerprinting of scripting protocols, less privacy for everyone else, and u= ndoes a key design goal of P2TR. In=C2=A0Matt's words: > The value=C2=A0of taproot is that its design natively adds [a cooperative= spending path] *for free* to every contracting protocol, and not only adds= it for free but *forces* every contracting protocol to carry at least some= of the cost if they decline to do this. This results in a massive net priv= acy win across the entire Bitcoin=C2=A0ecosystem... > a goal of taproot is *privacy* while=C2=A0offering efficiency for the com= mon (all-sign) case. That is generally true across contracting protocols an= d makes things net-cheaper with a taproot-style system where you hit the co= mmon case=C2=A0often. This is another reason why P2MR is quite a loss By eliminating depth-zero script trees, we'd force all P2MR users to pay fo= r the cost of having at least two spending conditions. We'd eliminate the i= ncentive for script devs to use P2MR over P2TR because both are equally eff= icient, and incentivize P2MR users to add a cooperative spending path using= BIP340, since those users are already paying for the cost of having a dept= h-1 tree anyway. This change to BIP360 wouldn't affect the recommended standard use-cases fo= r single-signer and multisig P2MR: hybrid addresses with one Schnorr leaf a= nd one PQ leaf. If anything, this change would encourage the proper use of = PQ fallback scripts, because the incentive logic can be applied to someone = who tries to use P2MR with only a single EC Schnorr leaf: This user must pa= y for the cost of a second leaf script anyway, so why not follow best-pract= ices and add a PQ leaf? AFAICT this change only affects use cases which would otherwise degrade the= fungibility of the UTXO set according to BIP360 critics, and encourages th= ose use-cases to adopt a cooperative spending path which (assuming all othe= r factors equal) will be indistinguishable from a regular single-signer P2M= R wallet with a PQ fallback leaf. I've already chatted about this off-list with some BIP360 proponents and th= ey seem receptive, but I'm really curious about the opinions of those who a= re leaning towards P2TRv2. Would this change to BIP360 address your concern= s surrounding P2MR's privacy incentives? If not, why? regards, conduition --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= Q8YTY1ArMzia7tRvcZ5v769WPxCMxAl_0rUy-byOBjBcTd4HXj7IB7Yt4gxLbKqk7EXFWy-PuGB= 6QtI28qRjE5Vob-l44UmBH6L8aXInoSk%3D%40proton.me. -----------------------d0153f078c563da7d177120237475cf6 Content-Type: multipart/related;boundary=---------------------16d942891347b8ba0c2471873c732ada -----------------------16d942891347b8ba0c2471873c732ada Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi list. I'= m following up on an idea I sketched in this thread debating P2MR vs P2TRv2

The premise is this: What if we modified this line of BIP360:
<= br>
The last stack element is called the control block c, a= nd must have length 1 + 32 * m, for a value of m that is an integer between= 0 and 128, inclusive. Fail if it does not have such a length.

To this:

The last = stack element is called the control block c, and must have length 1 + 32 * = m, for a value of m that is an integer between 1 and 128, inclusive. Fail if it does not have such a length= .

The key change is that the control = block must now include at least one merkle authentication path. This effect= ively bans depth-zero script trees in P2MR, and requires every P2MR address= to always pay the cost of having at least two spending conditions.

This seems like a reduction in P2MR's features and = efficiency. Why would we want to ban depth-zero script trees? W= ell these seem to be the source of a perverse incentive, as pointed out by = Matt Corallo and Antoine Poinsot in prior threads. B= itcoin script users are economically and practically incentivized by P2MR t= o use depth-zero script trees because their witnesses are smaller th= an if the same script were used in a taproot script spend.
=

Furthermore, depending on the exact scripts = and the developers' resources, devs using P2MR for a multi-party scripting = protocol may not be sufficiently incentivized to add a cooperative spending= path, even if their protocol might allow it. Doing so would require a dept= h-1 tree, which increases the witness size of the non-cooperative script sp= end path by 32 bytes. For some short scripts, e.g <height> CLTV= <pubkey> CHECKSIG=E2=80=8B, the devs may actually have incent= ive not to add a cooperative spending path, because the cooperative = path would actually be less-efficient than just using the non-cooper= ative path as the single leaf of a depth-zero tree. This leads = to easy fingerprinting of scripting protocols, less privacy for everyone el= se, and undoes a key design goal of P2TR.

I= n Matt's words:=

The value of taproot is that its design natively adds [a cooperative spending pat= h] *for free* to every contracting protocol, and not only adds it for free = but *forces* every contracting protocol to carry at least some of the cost = if they decline to do this. This results in a massive net privacy win acros= s the entire Bitcoin ecosystem...

a goal of taproot is *privacy* while offering efficiency for= the common (all-sign) case. That is generally true across contracting prot= ocols and makes things net-cheaper with a taproot-style system where you hi= t the common case often. This is another reason why P2MR is quit= e a loss

By eliminat= ing depth-zero script trees, we'd force all P2MR users to pay for the cost = of having at least two spending conditions. We'd eliminate the incen= tive for script devs to use P2MR over P2TR because both are equally efficie= nt, and incentivize P2MR users to add a cooperative spending path using BIP= 340, since those users are already paying for the cost of having a depth-1 = tree anyway.

This change to BIP360 wo= uldn't affect the recommended standard use-cases for single-signer and mult= isig P2MR: hybrid addresses with one Schnorr leaf and one PQ leaf. If anyth= ing, this change would encourage the proper use of PQ fallback scripts, bec= ause the incentive logic can be applied to someone who tries to use P2MR wi= th only a single EC Schnorr leaf: This user must pay for the cost of a seco= nd leaf script anyway, so why not follow best-practices and add a PQ leaf?<= /span>

AFAICT this change only affects use cases = which would otherwise degrade the fungibility of the UTXO set according to = BIP360 critics, and encourages those use-cases to adopt a cooperative spend= ing path which (assuming all other factors equal) will be indistinguishable= from a regular single-signer P2MR wallet with a PQ fallback leaf.

I've already chatted about this off-list with s= ome BIP360 proponents and they seem receptive, but I'm really curious about= the opinions of those who are leaning towards P2TRv2. Would this change to= BIP360 address your concerns surrounding P2MR's privacy incentives? If not= , why?

regards,
conduition


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