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[109.224.244.20]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8926c6da1cb9f-4f8249f8b65si70670173.1.2025.04.26.05.48.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 26 Apr 2025 05:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.20 as permitted sender) client-ip=109.224.244.20; Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2025 12:48:00 +0000 To: Luke Dashjr From: Pieter Wuille Cc: Sjors Provoost , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> Feedback-ID: 19463299:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 75a100ef4acffeeee95ed247069544670f4c377f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: bitcoin-dev@wuille.net X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@wuille.net header.s=protonmail2 header.b=YCHO0eBI; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@wuille.net; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wuille.net Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Saturday, April 26th, 2025 at 7:45 AM, Luke Dashjr wro= te: > That's nonsense. They were and continue to be very effective, even with > only a small amount of adoption. Further, mining centralization and Standardness rules have definitely been effective in the past, if we go far= enough back in time. But back then: * There were far less financial incentives to bypass them. Standardness add= s inconvenience to people developing infrastructure on top, which can nudge= in another direction. But I don't see how million-dollar (or more) busines= s incentives would be thwarted by the need to communicate with miners direc= tly (see below). These incentives will only increase as the subsidy dwindle= s. * There was far more reason for rules of this kind; the network was small a= nd far less valuable, and there were significant concerns about increased n= ode operation cost with a quickly-growing blockchain. With blocks consisten= tly full for most of the time for years now, even at times without so-calle= d "spam", that concern just does not exist; nodes will be processing the sa= me amount of transaction data anyway. I think I share Luke's feelings aroun= d non-financially-relevant transactions on-chain, but given sufficient dema= nd for block space anyway, there just is no need to discriminate. > pools denying miners options has been the biggest barrier to that > adoption. There is no significant financial impact either, that's just > FUD; miners using the fixed and improved spam filters have in fact > earned significantly more than miners using Core. I am doubtful of this claim, and would like to see evidence of it. > It would be a pain, but it is definitely viable. Thankfully, policy > works just fine for spam filtration, and can be adapted much quicker. Nobody is required to adopt policy, and I think you're burying your head in= the sand if you believe even in a world with more decentralized hashpower,= miners/hashers would voluntarily choose to disregard transactions that pay= a significant fee, if the potential gains from accepting them exceed the c= ost of building infrastructure to bypass whatever policy exists. Bitcoin users do have a means to deny usage of the chain to truly damaging = use: consensus changes. Those are not optional, apply to everyone equally, = do not create incentives for bypass, and - and I believe that is a good thi= ng - can only be adopted with very wide agreement. > > b) centralisation >=20 > No, this is more FUD. The **entire** reason why Bitcoin uses PoW, as opposed to using a tradition= al consensus system with a federation of block-builders, is to avoid censor= ship. If anyone dislikes the choices current miners make in what transactio= ns they accept, they can - without asking anyone for permission - join the = set of miners, and earn a proportional piece of the pie. While it is the ca= se that today mining power is quite concentrated in a number of businesses,= the set of such businesses can, and has, changed over time. This is a very= valuable property. Part of the puzzle to make that permissionlessness of mining work is access= to fee-paying transactions from the public. If sufficient economic demand = exist for transactions that the public network denies, miners and creators = of such transaction will develop transaction rails that bypass that network= . If it comes to a point where that economic demand is so high that miners ne= ed to rely on private transaction rails to realistically compete, I feel we= 'd be giving up on one of the most valuable properties the network has. I r= ealize this is a slipstreamery-slope argument, but it is already happening,= and once the rails are ubiquitous, it will be very hard to go back to a pu= blic network. --- Because of all these reasons, Concept ACK on relaxing the OP_RETURN limits,= including removing them entirely. I have been a strong proponent of these = limits in the past, and I'm not happy with seeing the demand for those tran= sactions. But I also recognize the reality that that demand exists, and the= alternative of pushing that demand to bypass the public network is far mor= e damaging. I will add that I am not in favor of relaxing many other standardness rules= in Bitcoin Core, such as transaction sizes and other resource limitations.= These have significant impact on the public's ability to verify and relay = transactions, and reason about incentive compatibility while doing so. Sign= ificant and sustained economic demand for such transactions may at some poi= nt too mean the policy needs to be revised to avoid an even worse outcome, = but I'm hopeful that is not the case. However, these arguments do not apply= to OP_RETURN limits, which don't serve an objective harm reduction beyond = a subjective "that isn't what you should be using the chain for". --=20 Pieter --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= QMywWcEgJgWmiQzASR17Dt42oLGgG-t3bkf0vzGemDVNVnvVaD64eM34nOQHlBLv8nDmeBEyTXv= BUkM2hZEfjwMTrzzoLl1_62MYPz8ZThs%3D%40wuille.net.