From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8785A218F for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 23:52:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-40133.protonmail.ch (mail-40133.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.133]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ACA56D6 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 23:52:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2019 23:52:20 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=default; t=1554421943; bh=vEHs43tXf52ZZcuZnFnvZ3MLdvu+SWgTum1vBKHePzM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=cC7qOa3kI/w1J0kjC7aA2RmOrSdC243Tye0tFxEtogkbCJxs6J06ZT1Nx/ABJXNpM oS0B9VOst6nkI5WIhAd9AtMHiK/3/XIlV+il+bU6K0czW4yiCS1XyWirpRDisRhVJP UEeJNLz2KZ52Fv4wmKG6KmOSgTJzQq+766YEqLZo= To: Aymeric Vitte From: ZmnSCPxj Reply-To: ZmnSCPxj Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: el4j0RWPRERue64lIQeq9Y2FP-mdB86tFqjmrJyEPR9VAtMovPEo9tvgA0CrTsSHJeeyPXqnoAu6DN-R04uJUg==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 03:19:01 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Smart Contracts Unchained X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2019 23:52:26 -0000 Good morning Aymeric, > What if the smart contract platform(s) disappear? > It is still possible to recover the funds, *if* you can convince all partic= ipants of some "fair" distribution of the funds. You do this by all participants simply signing with their participant keys = and taking the first branch of the script. This branch does not require the participation of the smart contract platfo= rm, at all. If all participants can agree to the result of the smart contract without d= ispute, then they can exit the platform even after the platform disappears. Now of course there will be participants who will not cooperate in such a c= ase, for example if they were doing some betting game and "lost". But at least it gives the possibility of doing so, and it will not be as ma= ssive a loss. Indeed, if the smart contract platform code is open source, it may be possi= ble to set up another implementation of the smart contract platform. And it would be possible to at least try to convince all participants to sw= itch to that new platform (again, via the "as long as everybody agrees" esc= ape hatch). Again, this is not possible with current federated sidechains, or Ethereum = (if Ethereum fails, all ETH becomes valueless). > The proposal induces a very centralized system, to my knowledge all of > existing sidechains whether on bitcoin or ethereum are centralized, > except lightning (if we forget that someone must watch what others are > doing when you are on a trek in Nepal) I would not lump together Lightning with sidechains. Indeed, this design moves things closer to true offchain techniques (as in = Lightning) than to sidechain techniques. So while centralized, it is less centralized than a federated sidechains. > Now I don't get why a sidechain should be a blockchain on top on another > one (given also that we can't consider bitcoin or ethereum as > decentralized today, so the path might be long for the sidechains...), > the latest is used to store the final state, the former does not have to > store forever the intermediate states, then it could just use a > decentralized system (not necessarilly blockchain-like) to store the > intermediate states and maybe be a distributed escrow > > I know, easy to say, please do it (why not), now the fact that > sidechains claim to be decentralized or that they will be is just > misleading people (that's not the case of your proposal but it does not > say what happens if the platforms go down) Perhaps it can be a next step. Regards, ZmnSCPxj