From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F61C016F for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 16:51:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8167F8772A for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 16:51:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6lAj--jPhEnq for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 16:51:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-40141.protonmail.ch (mail-40141.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.141]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77A1386AFF for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 16:51:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:51:36 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail; t=1590339100; bh=G2aHVGnBUhPSt8rptUWtmXf6b3yvUmyxpnHTCQoQ8Lk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=lrciD/4JP2Fuy1gfHgX114f6aXT3AvuqSxUuGkquPzOjmgR9Mu/tpHgH3+Hl8q+8F tLtUHtwCP/6uUtlZlAtrej5dYEfWy3ikz+opDlS9GMfdmt1WxwHBl9Kyw0sLETWprm /UkYRuSQkIFMYMXu2XX/ozYDOUOXkscWYvT3NAe8= To: Karl From: ZmnSCPxj Reply-To: ZmnSCPxj Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] hashcash-newhash X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 16:51:45 -0000 Good morning Kari, > You mention ASICs becoming commoditized.=C2=A0 I'd remind you that eventu= ally there will be a public mathematical breaking of the algorithm, at whic= h point all ASICs will become obsolete regardless.=C2=A0 Would you agree it= would be better to prepare for this by planning algorithm change? Possibly, but then the reason for change is no longer to promote decentrali= zation, would it? It helps to be clear about what your goals are, because any chosen solution= might not be the best way to fix it. I admit that, if the problem were to be avoid the inevitable obsoletion of = SHA-2, then this is the only solution, but that is not the problem you stat= ed you were trying to solve in the first place. > > You mention many coordinated hardforks.=C2=A0 Would you agree that if we = came up with a way of programmatically cycling the algorithm, that only one= hardfork work be needed?=C2=A0 For example one could ask nodes to consent = to new algorithm code written in a simple scripting language, and reject ol= d ones slowly enough to provide for new research. Even *with* a scripting language, the issue is still what code written in t= hat language is accepted, and *how*. Do miners vote on a new script describing the new hashing algorithm? What would their incentive be to obsolete their existing hardware? (using proof-of-work to lock in a hashing change feels very much like a chi= cken-and-egg problem: the censorship-resistance provided by Bitcoin is base= d on evicting any censors by overpowering their hashpower, but requires som= e method of measuring that hashpower: it seems unlikely that you can safely= change the way hashpower is measured via a hashpower election) Do nodes install particular scripts and impose a switchover schedule of som= e sort? Then how is that different from a hardfork, especially for nodes that do no= t update? (notice that softforks allow nodes to remain non-updated, at degraded secur= ity, but still in sync with the rest of the network and capable of transact= ing with them) > > You mention the cost of power as the major factor influencing decentraliz= ed mining.=C2=A0 Would you agree that access to hardware that can do the mi= ning is an equally large factor?=C2=A0 Even without ASICs you would need th= e physical cycles.=C2=A0 Including this factor helps us discuss the same se= t of expected situations. No, because anyone who is capable of selling hardware, or the expertise to = design and build it, can earn by taking advantage of their particular exper= tise. Generally, such experts can saturate the locally-available energy sources, = until local capacity has been saturated, and they can earn even more by sel= ling extra hardware to entities located at other energy sources whose local= capacities are not still underutilized, or expanding themselves to those s= ources. Other entities might be in better position to take advantage of particular = local details, and it may be more lucrative for the expert-at-building-hard= ware to just sell the hardware to them than to attempt to expand in places = where they have little local expertise. And expertise is easy to copy, it is only the initial expertise that is har= d to create in the first place, once knowledge is written down it can be co= pied. > > You describe improving electricity availability in expensive areas as a w= ay to improve decentralization.=C2=A0 Honestly this sounds out of place to = me and I'm sorry if I've upset you by rehashing this old topic.=C2=A0 I bel= ieve this list is for discussing the design of software, not international = energy infrastructure: what is the relation?=C2=A0 There is a lot of power = to influence behavior here but I thought the tools present are software des= ign. I doubt there is any good software-only solution to the problem; the physic= al world remains the basis of the virtual one, and the virtual utterly depe= ndent on the physical, and abstractions are always leaky (any non-toy softw= are framework inevitably gains a way to query the operating system the appl= ication is running under, because abstractions inevitably leak): and energy= , or the lack thereof, is the hardest to abstract away, which is the entire= point of using proof-of-work as a reliable, unfakeable (i.e. difficult to = virtualize) clock in the first place. Still, feel free to try: perhaps you might succeed. Regards, ZmnSCPxj