From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Sat, 03 May 2025 03:17:20 -0700 Received: from mail-oa1-f55.google.com ([209.85.160.55]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1uB9vr-0007Gh-8e for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Sat, 03 May 2025 03:17:20 -0700 Received: by mail-oa1-f55.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2d031b18c44sf2285185fac.0 for ; Sat, 03 May 2025 03:17:19 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746267433; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=AxZmhDOuxDJg1SiKkMaWxpHhCV+lr8DxWS0vJBY81pxhH5UBfXxQFdsnWpaVyTDVkA qtP7he7Bj8fesFQcsEW3AOoEppIDiJv5lrfRAuEjPHluLPvFmWSlyh+j27q5IGUa7qD2 G53jQc/hpQwmVGhkF1YKeGAmZxu6Zb3RIVP6hz8u/NcxKR04mWpGhlMfR0pUxUnfiH4S BZHaipKPyO4lRe3r3qVv3EHsSNZiHyx0fq+vPqdpqk6i4SrgBigmEi6zAtiHGiPti7OJ xCsvnpfwYKn7IDcIvxM2b7GnJYmrb80PRp+VKDZpQpgSJiVszUnvL+Ej4GneN7HvvfDC /2/Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject :cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature; bh=LohFaMUfWB+/ZPa/8iXUDqd8jjAlK2nDTmHg0RC6bMo=; fh=dUzT++ac1Tr824xTnTDWvK8Y06sdrJdBgWiZMWwKIKk=; b=PK5ZHxQV2Qm8CUHQ5mdO2SP14rclR7UvilIk0uEVe3bDo9E6jZlISSqXVofuibyfy7 z+WWmxivDEdPmEseDxn7qzrsxaGTNRZJp/o7JAzUrw9AE58LApOlJX8SnhZCEDn9YI/u 3tNUh9XPGLWckXUHuaJTwp9DLaq16OUR5aEZvU0cZlXgdol8sgi8tlcQy8j2pymPZPS3 u/t4O08K2c7JXyp47njqCCfprx76hknFSn7iBrAKMoqXhRnR7ON6JEUTDsL9u0+FR9fZ WJw4iF94UF6NaLveT1P/lEyNiMG18HzizsYQNGhoFL/PKWPeEaMMUMVpCfEPFSKrSUj7 EGyg==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@pm.me header.s=protonmail3 header.b=SHno7V1C; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nsvrn@pm.me designates 185.70.43.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nsvrn@pm.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=pm.me DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1746267433; x=1746872233; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references :in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LohFaMUfWB+/ZPa/8iXUDqd8jjAlK2nDTmHg0RC6bMo=; b=ALd2pgTF+iAwnpWGP1UZg1LX8q+ZRRkrokOhdaYN2hbU37/oChCl1t30D67d5JfR9J PcQjN3MnDuMU4DsVJfC5ZTkewmZvLATBK6ipS1PdF3P3Ht9Cj2UjmNc5XhwzF2DGAl0O y1spMMqwusfgSI26YowZrcg9+iMkwKV0ecEg6DVzKhM38Hu1cVAEJHFb3l8PULJS9Cz8 dFn1h1glg25Qg788rBY8Vj0YKhww1xvMWz/AMwgLc2Py4IFYKR9oSKUah67fQQcTT0TK 9iBY0UQpgBKSNKJe/LtcchCXkAnZaXistv3TJsYtYqJmsz7POaCEGEAgBnfO7oRgVTec EYAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746267433; x=1746872233; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references :in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LohFaMUfWB+/ZPa/8iXUDqd8jjAlK2nDTmHg0RC6bMo=; b=iaP5YsYx4w8IFhZPo+j/70f8JSFpnYXPCzjrMDI0o2V2o3RBPZoubycclQkIWy6lvL 2878kL6i8E1Dh3wQnMuvlOEKJcN39/MEKdr+RaIzi1BBq9YIzwAfIrcQPD527huEVqF9 aOcF4ArQolQ5Jiep15cnQWdbN7YHmJ2/dihRXxJNLEkETEZPmjiCHqelfPORgPtSj/YR qcAIyVn4SOv6ib2eTtWC3Uti2AxB97v7sIFnWCk8RsTGxQlivPqSUi+aZxEqNI0OtlkI YTo0W2jv7uA3BTdT4sxq6vthz4ufpawlTgoy2+Z+MKAe7oF/ZNQhrD5DQkqdVdBKZk3r 6w6Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVdVLJuHh27wsNuCa3BAS/lcD2x8+t6e+rZz7Avni4Cl8eQBuBBbcFPP6dVdf28hQHMZzHRp1UytJ9Q@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy6dCx9UPFmK/yGyhobIQA3EtDUNkf9lBiUTXDT8qPVmf8TsOer S74f66dQKnDQXx+tJv9s7iUi1AAT+z6RVnnKKNxELJaP2ftMh17J X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGutZ8S9a0+P7tXLRpTzxlFwGHMLYXuaeoda5VgXmiB03mQQJsPLutvPkHsUguMJOfITK668Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:2007:b0:2d4:d9d6:c8bf with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2dab33f064bmr3453213fac.32.1746267433020; Sat, 03 May 2025 03:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBH5/3jwU7PpkL5gyrziuDU5lT7pCuBRYKZkuSOIHIBUmw== Received: by 2002:a05:6871:d10b:b0:2c2:2ed7:fb78 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2da89d841a8ls1209572fac.0.-pod-prod-01-us; Sat, 03 May 2025 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3197:b0:3f8:e55c:16d6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40341a58759mr4076149b6e.28.1746267428380; Sat, 03 May 2025 03:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6402:64e:b0:5e6:412b:7fe with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5fa7781d49dmsa12; Fri, 2 May 2025 22:14:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:72d6:b0:aca:a1c9:d155 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ad17ad3b336mr429885766b.11.1746249290386; Fri, 02 May 2025 22:14:50 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746249290; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=N5eLv/SBG/thAtKCyZG4LffSZ3klSIjV21Oj6TZSgXwIdo4B3SmIgK9rD6OaZD4ttf RgJoXSv82a7v/y0IBk7ZIjAgUXMGAJasHkHWn70l2xeVzxdNKa3WPNAbcqMovKRtpGXj K0TWHckqX9ZytuT6pl9FyH/14bLROGyGGxHmdu/zA5pXUhZZ0gwE4u8RlFOcIOY7Uqr2 WBeswaPAkW++8ci+nay4Oe3boETyDmkLfc0TE6BEKlgT1zYhPElF4vbQgf/Tp1eXIZR0 28lFJOBwIJuhCogZDRvvmywEpOFRCCzZnqEtg2T1jzPJU1Tf9CkIHLBdxJDWpst6qmPT GHyQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references :in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature; bh=mNamweWynkEBfVpMrcjacMjbGV36YvY75VN0hX3K/ZM=; fh=yPd8HNyAt94w6+9mawPnFhKq8crEnOt8R5D/kg3m3ro=; b=YCGU8DzF3XbukC6s95cWM+VflHEx/Kn1jtQ7UkllrJR6ZLlE9Qhry8JyiAAckzwUg9 ygcRKARnw1o82yTBNOESpMSsFjQe7zD7wmMYKlbZ/S6Gg9VgSWZNMR+Ezm1+POsYoHvq EaT5rZqB/UGaoyYwk/eIT8dQ39hL7D9Liof/QTpN8XZ52wDO+OmHRK9XJ35R2DjMJORE Fk2f1apO+l8qS6uP5G4cyZ7RuCgY/QvEnSNBPCto1JyCh+yeBrWNKysSzai7+bS2igsl NsbE4HHaIpoXerVdkoqAxb5fY2qrauE690IY3k7nH1x/O/0aRX6hY75SoJ+lqEhWExnk Meyw==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@pm.me header.s=protonmail3 header.b=SHno7V1C; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nsvrn@pm.me designates 185.70.43.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nsvrn@pm.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=pm.me Received: from mail-4322.protonmail.ch (mail-4322.protonmail.ch. [185.70.43.22]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a640c23a62f3a-ad189203773si3563566b.2.2025.05.02.22.14.50 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 02 May 2025 22:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nsvrn@pm.me designates 185.70.43.22 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.43.22; Date: Sat, 03 May 2025 05:14:45 +0000 To: Peter Todd From: "'nsvrn' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> Feedback-ID: 105495266:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 75164562cd29e1db7d814f99209dd91822102c6c MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: nsvrn@pm.me X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@pm.me header.s=protonmail3 header.b=SHno7V1C; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nsvrn@pm.me designates 185.70.43.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nsvrn@pm.me; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=pm.me X-Original-From: nsvrn Reply-To: nsvrn Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lightning network already has existing users, why should they agree with re= laxing the limits for the other protocols like the one in question for what= ever new use cases that aren't even interested in or aren't even monetary u= se-cases? Most of them pitch that adding something equivalent to EVM to Bitcoin will = help gain Bitcoin more market cap because it doesn't have enough market cap= in the crypto. Nice pitch to their investors may be, but not so much to *e= xisting* users of Bitcoin network and lightning. Additionally, I would like to understand as a user - what will be the quant= ification for success of this change? If there's increased oversized op_ret= urn usage, you can claim - see that worked. If there's none, you can claim = - see filters were indeed ineffective. It might not be starightforward to q= uantify if there are multiple startups trying to insert variety of data(dat= a and commitments of data) in different ways and sizes. Also, it is being said users who want to retain these options can transitio= n to Knots but what it is not said is that users who don't want these can a= lso transition to Libre Relay. You can then see overtime if usage of Libre = Relay is growing or not to take some hint. On Friday, May 2nd, 2025 at 10:05 PM, Peter Todd wrote= : >=20 >=20 > On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 04:34:45PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: >=20 > > I don't share that concern, personally. Data storage is far more > > efficiently done outside of a blockchain (or more cheaply done on > > non-Bitcoin blockchains), and for any legitimate use case, avoiding > > wasting money on inefficient designs or unnecessary engineering project= s > > lets you capture more of that value as profit. For scams and frauds, > > that doesn't apply, but scams and frauds only last until your pool of > > victims grows wise to your shenanigans. >=20 >=20 > I need to point out that Citrea, and plenty of other projects similar to > it, is not using Bitcoin as a data storage mechanism. It's using Bitcoin > as a data publication mechanism. What's important is by putting data > in the Bitcoin chain, we've proven that the data has been widely > published to a well defined audience of participants who would need to > see that data. >=20 > Even Lightning does this: HTLCs work because they ensure that data is > published in a way that allows others in the HTLC chain to be guaranteed > to see that data in a timely manner. >=20 > - > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= v/aBUPFvXVhR3WoyPC%40petertodd.org. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= Xw4wydsck5vp5fdVcyK8C7hmiNsRfUVveJjyJIZHJitIpo-K4MqOwu8g6c4GcN2Kq_3NrtdhbUe= uv_BOveocZfdWjzjega321LKfzEQNGU4%3D%40pm.me.