From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C06AC002D for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2896041977 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:48 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 2896041977 Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=nBmnRRtH X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sBrX3LG6fduf for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org CBD95416BA Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD95416BA for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67E85C009E; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1666303997; x=1666390397; bh=qlycyeMq6zvS4m5cyBgkBUoW8k4Z PzO4Gr7I85tXxwA=; b=nBmnRRtH0xEfoypa9PE5PWM/dlVVG1rQLS60OQAp1JnQ DECcmPXlkObKAHPB+yliRAJESGbQfwCkUjeGepta/no693rUpMDhu7+qR2Ajvqpr wEBaIZan/JSbC5Xl/45nWsQ+pvXXY0D1J4yXjeWGN7XrlWrVXd+pUUNGYYLkqR7k eCc7eIItDLVX8c1b7Y+Iex7a9lEc2RqJkNB6/MgEZTPtY3HY3kp4UIe10kG/MflF K+sZZwhTcLrx/U6qbKJo55J+YRiyXdj4C+ewyeVqVD7merHpHoBqHACXlgRgelIO lO2zToBDVXNc/QvOy03UDSmJzUDVwAzpk26eJN4pFw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrfeeljedgtdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfej tdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehushgvrhesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BE4BC204BA; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:15 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Anthony Towns , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: Sergej Kotliar Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:48 -0000 --PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wro= te: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev = wrote: > > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this > > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good > > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not something > > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all? > > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will hav= e to > > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC t= o a > > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal payme= nt > > processor type business. >=20 > So, what I'm hearing is: >=20 > * lightning works great, but is still pretty small > * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf works great" = for them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small numb= er of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using = up inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guarantee" services, and the end result is not good. It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and no = new companies start. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEFcyURjhyM68BBPYTJIFAPaXwkfsFAmNRx/YACgkQJIFAPaXw kfvgCAf9HpK7CJwiqPY/HnzcjwceZXtmwwsq2In+pe7GCfAHsDljwlevBGZ9GwW/ Fhj22kW8KMGDNziQ7XfwgqEAhOaBLWydCxRnAVk2v0LJboFCnrAvlle57ZuMicXZ xz9h+ZxpDZLAqefWUyH9CAaX6jM57TMfSI3jJzU2KymnfdosCxYbysz18bT9f6Q2 mPvIOc5ZeVdiZtVT/stPkSq1o4R2hKZSMIBKgzMui5oosVJvh2EDrBNURr9xJuX0 KbOgydl1fE9a7gsHu2tYfzL/d2DjTnSC8Q9LdrDC1E47fkqrQJTsXY1JmMWfkjLG vpHl0vncjb7TdVIgau5auPRTt8SzVw== =C+IE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd--