From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9C0C002D for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898E7843D5 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 898E7843D5 Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=MthyHVxv X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dlY2p-wz_1EA for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 23:18:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 3B032843D2 Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B032843D2 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 23:18:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050085C00C5; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:18:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1666307898; x=1666394298; bh=fK1iqAl0T83Re2dm7By14C3olqJy dZuXv5mjowdjnKs=; b=MthyHVxv0po+TkGivI1g2zTJl6iUKBK4TkGTG0b1oTNo g/erbC8b/PRzC4WSiMwledN0CT/gUW9B3IE8HrkvCTM/GCFoYgynMoUqfvPkRFsM UJE5JCaTkuawWpCNw2LP4qTXfPPT95GV7P2Ff+TuW18cYb3r8JFQqylYgA+zcZKL /mJztUtx8HwT4XzXJm1T8TQWAl67asXxCxmWbGC/B30zWbr6tyj7MsjTLtl4Hi+z 1xX1u8mMxI+2T4lxl1rpQCe2Vhqqp3jpDtFo4Oemnq32MfDkW+ah2tlg6j9+MS9v bhclwYI62+2kzCuHKYsKMSUusvJp7Nl1h2cdPVoVLA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrfeeljedgvdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfej tdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehushgvrhesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 10151204BA; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:18:16 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Anthony Towns , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: <0hpdGx-1WbZdG31xaMXGHKTCjJ2-0eB5aIXUdsp3bqI1MlCx6TMZWROwpl1TVI5irrBqRN2-ydM6hmf3M5L-7ZQfazbx66oameiWTHayr6w=@wuille.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FSv1JoOv3atKEUgi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 23:18:24 -0000 --FSv1JoOv3atKEUgi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 05:00:45PM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wro= te: > For what it's worth, my guess is that releasing core with full rbf > support and having you and Murch and others advocating for people to > try it out, will mean that full RBF is usable on mainnet within two > or three months, supported by perhaps 5%-20% hashpower, but probably > still requiring special effort to actually find a peer that can relay > full rbf txs to that hashpower (probably doing an addnode, despite the > privacy implications). Even if that happens, I'm not super confident > that it would mean people would actively steal from zeroconf businesses > in any volume, though. It's not something I'd risk happening to me, > but accepting zeroconf from strangers isn't something I'd risk anyway. FWIW I'm not aware of any zeroconf accepting businesses where exploiting do= uble spends can be done without significant legal risk. Bitrefill has significant legal risk, because pretty much everything you buy with Bitrefill can be tr= aced to your real world identity. ATMs have less risk. But I haven't seen an ATM that accepts BTC without a confirmation in many years. Nor have I found a non-KYC/AML in-person currency exchange service that would accept funds wit= hout a confirmation (yes, I've had to wait 30 mins to get my cash before!). And all the anonymous crypto-exchange websites like FixedFloat require a confirmati= on. I have found AML/KYC in-person currency exchange services that would accept zero conf. But of course, they had sufficient details on me to just call the police if I double-spent them. In practice, there are very few people who are actually affected by zeroconf going away. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --FSv1JoOv3atKEUgi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEFcyURjhyM68BBPYTJIFAPaXwkfsFAmNR1y8ACgkQJIFAPaXw kfva+wf9FmgoUIdH3XJbQC4ueZ8uZ2sx1Dxs3OfXCFsTbCe6Ptxi7bAY2OFZbLCG VBoGb2BgPJRuYaRRQpctIG+xXdpEmqQJIpz+oe5pFyB7sJ1X9vX+pLg6vae0lTEP L5VNIwIfy8kUF1Q86YY2c5whcK1LFzzBdtALxKpL0B1jz8gbfIWMbJ50b6DR7uCk NOhvsniPgGpegjx2CT+kLOBZEvK+9s64CuehaeBLzSqPxTHag5Z4cTKJBJwDwxPn wGLQaCF02soX1qjumsiNSI4LqQinlfdg9JE+1PpX4n3UOiJzeozkVposnQ4KsUWX qdqw9M/hB1aUodVQpjG765BezeT59g== =3UEi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FSv1JoOv3atKEUgi--