From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB6FC0033; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:35:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E0B607C1; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:35:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=petertodd.org header.b="EFhjwFhg"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b="Yd5fC/jA" Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2WQrzmy0bkc; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:35:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F683605BA; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:35:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1B65C02C4; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:35:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petertodd.org; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; bh=UmLpVqx2y9LhwN8egnIJflKfaqReLw IJA1BM+I0WnCs=; b=EFhjwFhgViv+ub3TAMU4jgrUP6Sf5lPD8f9aRKviZJfBz4 SX+l8HFtomVOhzkOr05ZFbcVJZcO+jzDIkCbPV4kOVu5B+t4ZGRbJh7saQwthfWW C/RMIeZX17cgE6E5TDcarSXZelav1QJ8Btr92/nAckvWn73ugHqBNMyjOylb8nAb zUieW2l2FpcHFLn435JdDAshVRNQwga5SjZPFoEeE/d598syBBRpNcIjZ/TZQg4d 3Jpeguoiu4bPqDpN4Dhn6izlMety7DlMKohiOZAYhlxkwfWHML9nv0CsDYAThwYc 2zZT0708kOiPUOQCR4+XZhx/iIphlhFKhFOyat6Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=UmLpVqx2y9LhwN8eg nIJflKfaqReLwIJA1BM+I0WnCs=; b=Yd5fC/jAvk13M6MYLyyehUhLYn2AA3Hjc i6oCEps4iDi4ZfRAHGQdiREh4M3DZDVSbg8tGPjsxn9eHhlVGp1S6GH0hJziADFz T6EFMDjcdrVe8TCEfC2pHuAFup1w/0CAaIKWXgBr02XxZ3PUO3DHvxyW5nn5MvwK f3tW34FjrE+dLhYjRfNBKIKV9dfjyj+pS4zNuD0nCiDeLHhOgrm1TnG+5F8Mc5wl Oxv8DtoE8khXMUTaqRP1t9F7tMi3YcVUoBk8oErXeAGbV6l/OiZbOzi5UdpEkllw 1VOjTmP5rFkoz94JkRz/pEMwPA4CLcj7b5FNSXrwR9FhXf5soHk3A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrkedvgddufeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepiedvvdelieekjeeukefgtdelfeegheehleffueehteeghfelveejfeelgeevffef necuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepuhhsvghrsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdho rhhg X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5181D5FBAA; Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:35:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:35:20 -0500 From: Peter Todd To: darosior Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AS4ZbKUrKwuvTFWN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , lightning-dev , Jeremy Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] [Pre-BIP] Fee Accounts X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:35:28 -0000 --AS4ZbKUrKwuvTFWN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 05:20:19PM +0000, darosior wrote: > > Necromancing might be a reasonable name for attacks that work by gettin= g an > > out-of-date version of a tx mined. >=20 > It's not an "attack"? There is no such thing as an out-of-date transactio= n, if > you signed and broadcasted it in the first place. You can't rely on the f= act that > a replacement transaction would somehow invalidate a previous version of = it. Anyone on the internet can send you a packet; a secure system must be able = to receive any packet without being compromised. Yet we still call packet floo= ds as DoS attacks. And internet standards are careful to avoid making packet flooding cheaper than it currently is. The same principal applies here: in many situations transactions _do_ become out of date, in the sense that you would rather a different transaction be mined instead, and the out-of-date tx being mined is expensive and annoying. While you have to account for the _possibility_ of any transaction you have signed being mined, Bitcoin standards should avoid making unwanted necroman= cy a cheap and easy attack. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --AS4ZbKUrKwuvTFWN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmIRVIIACgkQLly11TVR Lzf12Q//WMSqEkDobPThtC8EAgShDe3KDdtZxLTuIjCYsCRjpFWrDXG/dyD/NBAj 13kezg7VpkrjLjFm/TUQEMa4gKI52AaZk9dSuqXYKj4nUvb3T5sT5HCjqp4VQFZR Qbf+tszpvFTejRDL/dTYFvjFH1dHMJJ3Nr/PkWjowzrq3js3hKU2JBB/rbpAB52V oYkAwACvCdRxB9wsJD0zwliLg23gs/7/3I++FOXTb1l45IRYJ2jf7q/zUehpWMZw KDarrqp0719xdK4449ZfH5Ur5uds22yZRB8t7fC8mn6+Dt+8FIvLNWjAI+xPuzVn WqnwSkceW5uMb3y43NtPCO8+Vsiy61Hk5CvSElij/nx21RsvU48a9nKMHUTY4qOl ZeQ4pw4mb5yorW3cTjJnP63AZLLUydOd1gm/are+tNIjunB6KvNS3ZR43O0X0J6x idxY0vaG57ou6N4jJOV+CKpjRRbYtbX+DwHg8tykygu3T6DY90Q5Bd5itxr1J0EB SI2XX0sTDWdplo69qm2eiOKM+do3LKsgbmiBu5kwUCeHbQM+XXRpkl4IrhnmeDPl ZIvlP9jJQdGBUX2/Ya3NZcWHYabpTwHtA/LufvA+xQ1oVZ+8o1Myu2SDzK2RHXRy D7LJjLiLo/mx2BDvJmerpcH7xLOWfvVdBJMPhSkhGx3Ex1/CHWI= =3nxm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AS4ZbKUrKwuvTFWN--