From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2988C002D for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 10:31:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4103560E25 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 10:31:47 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 4103560E25 Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=petertodd.org header.i=@petertodd.org header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=M2eTPQk1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm2 header.b=Jm9O0wrD X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ggmCgN7xMV4 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 10:31:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org B33ED60D56 Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B33ED60D56 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 10:31:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AB33200124; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:31:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petertodd.org; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1655634698; x=1655721098; bh=91 ZtbTpvVb5zR5gu+xt2OOxvzJ9O1wOk4F3L02TOwi4=; b=M2eTPQk10cJYYXMx0r tjoTOteRIrecvW0hTSV5AGK/rEKbiTFKnCEcJ4Jx6K9SdA18ETdYGhO5Zt5nYRpo F1BQ0RJHyRtfmf4wfuO1V5i/6MfIn9vfa+L16+0TtRQdA+wdvD4y41F7/bQFPkRg JHjx4wTk/k0STyeoGTt1NKGG42w5XXjnUy2+jc0B0wG0kOkvOq8GeY7LNaIitbtX C9vubH/i4apT8jb/R4WZkGAaLGs9UjpZJPQv41jUyBISE3u/+W+vo+zOpFkN6HFW aYJb2mF4Wz3tsORrdF92ptrh7Qy30k0/cxT5jtEq5chC7t623o6GC2TMTESGasU5 ac/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm2; t=1655634698; x=1655721098; bh=91ZtbTpvVb5zR5gu+xt2OOxvzJ9O 1wOk4F3L02TOwi4=; b=Jm9O0wrDlvbfVBL5m6Jxov8C70fUTWrmEWMPz66j7/n0 /RzuNQFNxB6lMTdTCXnu/bWi/fk/a2X+tuMFC88Udc0SVrjqXUC+E0vkUdSf84Tz 4OANo1EwNQ40affDpt2ZlwXP8EdQOwcRyLrFEYrjzdv7K0F0JO+2lkgQnyA1TUo2 SSGEtWl5EqEgBd53H7JWd/d9Aj2jIC9Y872sNXbzE4F4Nge2692yaqLYW39b9dUX GWUtoamW7kQ80Tu/KYVAZthl0fUUtKf6PX+qAaiX0e710Cb0a6w30u/4AjQalbqG 322hXqK9bQnoQ/+mtNi7J83USYwFVuYkOxA8ZezkNQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedruddvledgfedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtd erredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhht ohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepledvleelffdtudekudffjefgfeejue ehieelfedtgfetudetgeegveeutefhjedtnecuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggu rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epuhhsvghrsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 17B5922B5D; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:31:38 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: alicexbt Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="96zmZgQ7LKx1mur2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 10:31:47 -0000 --96zmZgQ7LKx1mur2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 12, 2022 at 07:16:49PM +0000, alicexbt wrote: > Hi Peter, >=20 > > Only because the block reward goes away. If it was made to continue > > indefinitely - most likely with an inflation hard fork - demand for blo= ck space > > would not be critical to Bitcoin's security. >=20 >=20 > I am not completely against your proposal although 100% sure this will no= t have "consensus" to be implemented. I think if bitcoin doesn't have enoug= h demand for block space, it should die. I will be sad if bitcoin doesn't e= xist but it should be a lesson for all the people opposing soft forks based= on drama and politics instead of technical review. >=20 > I don't see anything wrong with users paying 100x fees for opening and cl= osing LN channels. The PoW security of Bitcoin benefits all Bitcoin users, proportional to the value of BTC they hold; if Bitcoin blocks aren't reliably created the value= of *all* BTC goes down. It doesn't make sense for the entire cost of that secu= rity to be paid for on a per-tx basis. And there's a high chance paying for it o= n a per-tx basis won't work anyway due to lack of consistent demand. It would be extremely unfortunate if one of the very few decentralized ways= to store value died simply because we couldn't find a way to pay to keep it secure. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --96zmZgQ7LKx1mur2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEFcyURjhyM68BBPYTJIFAPaXwkfsFAmKu+wYACgkQJIFAPaXw kfuTUQf+NhtRHS26QXBZ7rxcFFqWlUOGQ0GQQf5kQzC/XOoMq3KjD28K86R6NOJ7 13XSQSfhyeQY/SLzM5OtuZogayb3lpoBmVrt+9eGn5iGIVOAGkK1nZJvbR4yanaF GId/l/NyvakQt61aBQjUdwjfwRpLYwInZo7aff2zAoXk72kfcGKZ9THyeKFaUW1k lqabWMOkrNZ3kCnGKruf0u1boEClNQRBekepgaD2zQgCeuFSk9j+LSdnM3dStvTr Nub6uXUEUGCRGboM5+OCXxL/930PBTZO1bHm6kulHkm9qtWpaTn+48ch6/+NlqFj 9yV3x6OvRR5+5Lf2RN2ElcMN+I4qdQ== =SkRW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --96zmZgQ7LKx1mur2--