From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACBDC002D for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:37:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2314152D for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:37:58 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 6F2314152D Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=petertodd.org header.i=@petertodd.org header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm1 header.b=w8osKKRf; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=K3Lhf2va X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e3P5WziPh-bA for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:37:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org A736441513 Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A736441513 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:37:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA11C5C0138; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:37:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petertodd.org; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1659361070; x=1659447470; bh=va GeopsvHHSK1D8zKLseDhPKAXdmQvhPVvBGtV5jP8Y=; b=w8osKKRfjLeViqdVPv EnQ5luFY2Z5CZHEeXHoDID52e5/bhfKAX6Y+hOJDDLrtdNQ1Jxt1u9x+2nD4wAjm zpfzg7sLEYByTUdXiMoetzAY7BWD6+9JbOtNfSXwd58DZGMsNZ+EoROrqn+jQMtj yPQhudGqB+FZp0spBB70OhAjMxMfEYd/hs7phH5yQbWghnEvQ6pqvTgukbJLwOCB TdopHtEDq4PCyXPxXsNMEWADRX/gNipmREcvMWGsDBQQtFYdQ0uUPbrssItBKZZe BtK8uFIjP0zAbWhzp77Mn9B6eYXgkXHGxa88cUhZJp2YNg5Rc/KQJj0K7eKNIxEN t03A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1659361070; x=1659447470; bh=vaGeopsvHHSK1D8zKLseDhPKAXdm QvhPVvBGtV5jP8Y=; b=K3Lhf2va2JUI/ptid73SAKKR4Aw0/K7z9ZeJeoo2xhTI gfDIQNY7H1zzSAF8noQARjv/KGfI5xPstgbz+LF7s8jXgTh2BZTVByr6GQqY5COr 5tDI/FebDAmHyUvQBeQ//UxPxZueaQkK2iScVsDsn4WbuHDspkvXNaCB+vLdm6gQ KNsjZguo9uYlrUGK9fIMej0dYSsjiUex0S4hu+SLXO+ARw5hthxoRHQtoCl+MayO pFlB6SChLWVi779nRehWJ4WQyT1aMMxzR8iylOaFedwf9LfRZOIrSFLcv8gjPZu6 DlqMhRGus2IJJef+Ykr+mCcyEtlVkeq8pZNZu8bntQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrvddvfedgieekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfej tdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehushgvrhesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6B4025F826; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:37:47 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: "aliashraf.btc At protonmail" Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T4S61sx0r/2cmSVd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Regarding setting a lower minrelaytxfee X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:37:58 -0000 --T4S61sx0r/2cmSVd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 01, 2022 at 01:19:05PM +0000, aliashraf.btc At protonmail wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 05:24:35PM +0000, alicexbt via bitcoin-dev wrot= e: > > like a hashcash-based alternative broadcast scheme. > Hi Peter, > I've been mulling the idea of attaching work to low fee txns, both as a c= ompensation (e.g., in a sidechain, or an alt), and/or as a spam proof. Unfo= rtunately, both suffer from ASICs: > For spam proof case, the adversary can easily buy a used/obsolete device = to produce lots of spam txns very cheaply, unless you put the bar very high= , making it almost impossible for average users to even try. > The compensation scenario is pretty off-topic, still, interesting enough = for 1 min read: > Wallets commit to the latest blockchain state in the transaction AND atta= ch work. > It is considered contribution to the security (illegitimate chains can't = include the txn), hence isrewarded by fee discount/exemption depending on t= he offset of the state they've committed to (the closer, the better) and th= e amount of work attached. > For this to work, block difficulty is calculated inclusive with the work = embedded in the txns, it contains. Sophisticated and consequential, yet not= infeasible per se. >=20 > Unfortunately, this scheme is hard to balance with ASICs in the scene too= , for instance, you can't subsidize wallets for their work like with a leve= rge, because miners can easily do it locally, seizing the subsidies for the= mselves, long story, not relevant just ignore it. We're not talking about a consensus system here. Just a way to rate-limit access to a broadcast network used by a small minority of nodes. It's completely ok to simply change the PoW algorithm in the _highly_ unlikely e= vent someone bothers to build an ASIC for it. Since this isn't a consensu system, it's totally ok if multiple versions of the scheme run in parallel. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --T4S61sx0r/2cmSVd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmLn1ygACgkQLly11TVR Lzdjsg//R+gpPTjHThVTyCpU+Q7xoWOLQQThn/fjxNaN6Otuh3yiW3+JLYQl7jws oK2GbBV5xUib4klKvyDlffQmjC/vTiQqSm5ONaPxxQjVln9CXjYe4yaxgXevpkTX kqheTiu3nLca7hAmwdJSg0g3TCAYOvVykm9EDxJ8U7mZJQcsbPBxGzLLaA2pbQIq 7toaMEdxHPU7VNr4mlwj4V2Q8Vhte3QEU6MOEY7L8OsfLgoNpOvsJqgbiVK721Q1 Vlm4Wtcb7DFspHK2NvNZjWH+EUOwkRX76DVQj4vQkS70g8kQV+Twgo8ROSbeSwO2 MONgTDu5QTcU6y1mrFFJttc0A63zCL7xvsRqfTtoCBGEf8GITldjRhvv+YEvKOgo d1mBpYVSAWNP91kw/OBT6gRse3PzZ+qt5vt79zEQy8F2JACiDJOLVecxnxHCjE6f h73bT0HA7Rnwbf6VDWXW1XGTmzvp6Hrd4gH9z2CpAalvt1uxO24XANoBQ2zYigc5 fUOBmi3W4lXReOSQ+kpOQe7uBmPUXFyJYPMcmPUNuhdCpafXOHNf9YMuR9VMJdou e2PP67Hni4iGei3gcMGQe15j2b6y49DHf+VIcwca7sYqDqia19WZeBZA62IAvMEC shqhtQSGu7rhDNCtd1C+9G5hdJrRHOlR0Ra5So8jC+K6i2DNtw0= =MsS/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T4S61sx0r/2cmSVd--