From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54567C002D for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2022 10:05:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED9481A47 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2022 10:05:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 2ED9481A47 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aII1-amk6kd5 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2022 10:05:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 3A09780BD1 Received: from azure.erisian.com.au (azure.erisian.com.au [172.104.61.193]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A09780BD1 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2022 10:05:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from aj@azure.erisian.com.au (helo=sapphire.erisian.com.au) by azure.erisian.com.au with esmtpsa (Exim 4.92 #3 (Debian)) id 1oaDex-000059-HI; Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:05:53 +1000 Received: by sapphire.erisian.com.au (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:05:47 +1000 Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:05:47 +1000 From: Anthony Towns To: Antoine Riard , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score-int: -18 X-Spam-Bar: - Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin-inquistion: evaluating soft forks on signet X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 10:05:57 -0000 On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 02:47:38PM -0400, Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Said succinctly, in the genesis of creative ideas, evaluation doesn't > happen at a single clear point but all along the idea lifetime, where this > evaluation is as much done by the original author than its peers and a > wider audience. Sure. I definitely didn't mean to imply a waterfall development model, or that the phases wouldn't overlap etc. > I would still expose a concern to not downgrade in the pure empiricism in > matter of consensus upgrades. I.e, slowly emerging the norm of a working > prototype running on bitcoin-inquisition` as a determining factor of the > soundness of a proposal. E.g with "upgrading lightning to support eltoo", a > running e2e won't save us to think the thousands variants of pinnings, the > game-theory soundness of a eltoo as mechanism in face of congestions, the > evolvability of APO with more known upgrades proposals or the > implementation complexity of a fully fleshed-out state machine and more > questions. I agree here; but I think not doing prototypes also hinders thinking about all the thousands of details in a fork. It's easy to handwave details away when describing things on a whiteboard; and only realise they're trickier than you thought when you go to implement things. > E,g if one implements the "weird" ideas > about changes in the block reward issuance schedule discussed during the > summer, another one might not want "noise" interferences with new > fee-bumping primitives as the miner incentives are modified. (I don't think "miner incentives" are really something that can be investigated on signet. You can assume how miners will respond to incentives and program the mining software to act that way; but there's no competitive pressure in signet mining so I don't think that really demonstrates anything very much. Likewise, there's much less demand for blockspace on signet than on mainnet, so it's probably hard to experiment with "fee incentives" too) > I hope the upcoming > Contracting Primitives WG will be able to document and discuss some of the > relevant experiments run on bitcoin-inquisition. Likewise. (Lots trimmed due to either agreeing with it or having nothing to add) Cheers, aj