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[103.168.172.156]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id af79cd13be357-7c00a91e2d4si55486085a.7.2025.02.04.14.22.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 04 Feb 2025 14:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.156; Received: from phl-compute-04.internal (phl-compute-04.phl.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E051140110; Tue, 4 Feb 2025 17:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-04.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 04 Feb 2025 17:22:09 -0500 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvudejvdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdp uffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivg hnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddv necuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdroh hrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteeiveeujeetleekffetveefheelleejffelleel ieffheefhfetteehuedtuddtnecuffhomhgrihhnpeigrdgtohhmpdhpvghtvghrthhoug gurdhorhhgpdgrrhgthhhivhgvrdhishdpghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhlihhquhhishgr sghirdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedvpdhm ohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglh gvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepnhhothhhihhnghhmuhgthhesfihoohgs lhhinhhgrdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 4 Feb 2025 17:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 464C69FCD2; Tue, 4 Feb 2025 22:22:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 22:22:07 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Yuval Kogman Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Reiterating centralized coinjoin (Wasabi & Samourai) deanonymization attacks Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=R9DwL6r7; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Feb 04, 2025 at 03:02:01PM +0100, Yuval Kogman wrote: I'm going to split this off because this kind of thing isn't relevant to the actual technical details of interest to readers of their mailing list, and I'll make it easy for the mods to decide whether or not to let this part of the discussion through. > # Conflict of Interest > > It would have been appropriate for you to disclose that your review is > paid for by an interested party as a direct response to accusations I > have made: The supermajority of the people posting on this mailing list are being paid for their work. It would be silly to pre-face every single email with "sponsored by Foo"; what you are replying to is just an email, not my actual review publication, which I have not completed yet. You yourself appear to be paid to work on the topic of on-chain privacy via your employment at Spiral; I don't see you putting disclaimers about that. https://x.com/spiralbtc/status/1704905217974665340 For actual public publications I've made, in recent years I've generally said who paid for them and under what terms: https://petertodd.org/2024/one-shot-replace-by-fee-rate https://petertodd.org/2024/covenant-dependent-layer-2-review https://petertodd.org/2023/v3-transactions-review https://petertodd.org/2023/drivechains#backstory There's some other material on that blog where payment really isn't clear to me and not discussed. E.g. material I (partly) wrote in one form for a client and then reworked on my own time to be a blog post. And obviously, everything I write is arguably commercial: my full-time employment is Bitcoin-related consulting, and publishing is one of the main ways I get work. > - https://archive.is/cbffL > - https://archive.is/BJCNG > > Kruw has described his service as "free" and "trustless", despite earning > revenues and despite the issues described here. Supporting evidence for > this is in the unedited version of this reply. Wasabi set the coordinator fee limit to 0% by default in the Jun 2024 release: https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WalletWasabi/releases/tag/v2.0.8.1 Kruw's coordinator does not charge a coordinator fee. Due to how Wasabi coinjoins work, coinjoins will almost always have some small amount of sats left over that didn't decompose into standard denominations after the transaction fee is paid. Those sats go to the coordinator. The amounts involved are tiny, always less than the transaction fee, as you can easily see on https://liquisabi.com/ For example, b4daaefbd53dd255a4d1507889df52fe1adcc970b5edaea1d9fc2b1c840f7367, had 31,407sats of leftovers that went to the coordinator, out of 5,459,668,967 sats of outputs and a 104,289 sat transaction fee. 31,407 / 5,459,668,967 = 0.0006% I'll let others decide whether or not you're being dishonest by not mentioning the tiny amounts involved, while simultanously claiming I'm being dishonest by not mentioning in my email that (as usual) I'm getting paid to work on this stuff. In particular, remember that that fees are part of the coinjoin security model: we *need* transactions to be costly enough to prevent sybil attacks. If anyone with access to coins can just do infinite coinjoin transactions at zero cost, we have a potential sybil attack problem. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/Z6KTD2vvdfsCpVDN%40petertodd.org. --eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmeikwwACgkQLly11TVR Lzcf9Q//djX0FDEK4ynKmmZ1S7bXJuoIVyBYZzOSMDVHv+nxjREkhb+MX8f0jVbo 2XKyyrtQrzFLr5co6p7k25NHDLAzZW/AJxopZa7TWksg6wNRgunVSB13B/Makrh7 tLIv9M4G+b6hf/mB8rEZIm7QGPLQF0xg8VRx9J+wkgl4G9Cj/3vrJ1bRq6jXCYrC B1flUUqciFF66xvzFui5rWh3xGlXPUWOgSZRwDLvPgx04PeJ2sder5OmUZo88hj2 LlXlQIKON1oVJHJ7xPqHBJ5wuPV1k+761/PhXqKOgtOwHup78VWJ9bXcpDmq09KT z9CTDZ+93US4DLh859ZE6LZ6M7Yo23ABaay/FSqw+dxtq2ajJXyyr1NmHHb3sNck hQcRu6KuGIjGF5irMydTGLIjERuCBIT/7TIpfFy+BL6svT4wsMEkK2HXxVR7/972 h0XIR51g+ClvvJrExSU1+i27rFA07XAs9OpRvd2fdqHy47zssvEt3vNOaWN+JDbe ZYpawUEgQqWaHwKC8EW52zFiBFwVf+qAQnSEosOg1iaHUlqcLokAkbQako63Wp1f FpQa7h2Lmd0n/KXf0KfS+fT/6q3SlqmwOCg9JJcakka5MWUGKpyWUuQ4Ky03EbUV 4yWMqZ3wlcAxkSrcxju8ZP7V6jL+xiy+iSQYUHxTYwDZKQnH0/w= =W+rh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eiWDiUnQqOUOZDGs--