From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA13EC0032 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:42:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8336E4F212 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:42:40 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 8336E4F212 Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=fmeGpbNi X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XG7heleiBycK for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:42:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0653A41DEC for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:42:35 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 0653A41DEC Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29283200930; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 11:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 02 Nov 2023 11:42:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1698939753; x=1699026153; bh=OyZqnyKe8Uteu t9DVjyhsdjx+mde41Weh7NtecrDnJ0=; b=fmeGpbNiDJs+bT7IdfFpXcgwXZglI uOZgGpkv6GalJhsMzwtkdEDL10IgdbDSYl/DhHWzBMqCOVttk7CIOoPTwXCUWqhK bRWNRL3CGfIrIdOoPsSqApw90pXTiBPE31FXVp7+xwqI6yZSDVIG490H7ZVPIRTb IzqjdBgchDZ4p3JRIAVEAdLhth9NuVKHgSPmnU/bcmvYDR1hm1lTRUXkNK7o0/Fc P+kx7SVksC419ST5xCO6ak38hreo4D/pBdv6SIEiQxaidD9ucqPB1Pa57RS5abk/ kO6MmeaPRv+ErY5+6KvrGBW+JDA8Chkc3AjkTFubiWCOQf2w7+3sho17Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedruddtiedgkedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjsehgtdorredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnheplefgteeiheekudfgffeiieehfffhveelgfdtfeekuddtueekhedvleeiiefhgfek necuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdho rhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 11:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3A9FF5F844; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:42:29 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:42:29 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: John Carvalho , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+uncIoM9bJUI0yxk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] The Pinning & Replacement Problem Set X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 15:42:40 -0000 --+uncIoM9bJUI0yxk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 08:58:36AM +0000, John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev wro= te: > Good morning, >=20 > All layers and technologies "on" Bitcoin will fail in situations where > miners misbehave or the blocks & mempool remain consistently, overly full. > Consider this as a "law" of Bitcoin/blockchains. >=20 > In hindsight (for you, not me) it was very unwise to start messing with > mempool policies, like with RBF, mempoolfullrbf. First-seen policy brought > a fragile harmony and utility to Bitcoin, which we were lucky to have for > as long as we could. Replacement cycling has nothing to do with full-rbf. You are being disingen= uous by bringing up your pet topic in relation to this exploit. In fact, in the anchor channels case, it isn't even possible for the releva= nt transactions to turn BIP-125 RBF off, as the 1 block CSV delay forces RBF t= o be enabled. Note that at the moment, the largest pool - AntPool - has full-RBF enabled. Thus we have at least 40.1% of hash power mining with full-RBF: AntPool: 28% Binance Pool: 7.8% Luxor: 2.5% BTC.com: 1.8% Obviously, the sane thing to do is design protocols that are made secure by clear incentives, rather than vague hopes. Thats why I proposed OP_Expire, a solution that does not rely on any particular mempool behavior. Indeed, it'= s a solution that unlike the current mitigations relying on mempools, has good resistance to mempool sybil attacks. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --+uncIoM9bJUI0yxk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmVDw2IACgkQLly11TVR Lze7Lw//b/+Q746p3Me05N5vDiDo7338mZl7V+BplEGx3Js1/SrmKCZ5r3cYtUvk 7W7NeaEWABKFNu+p+ZH6/hXCPgaxfxiXCKckIFLsABPZRb2MXsmoAk2qTWzrF+85 KspRI39t2Kfk7leUQV+lTgtY8Y/nVl5BZyEItsilK8E5lYs1FQhjCXEawZETlVpb mEW497xu/0jWoYtjEkOJ6JxF37pBUPnSqMCGogRbS5rKFF18IL2DqKf1fkJnHUdx +ZWmYdKtPf+EuA3Db/vlSI9NekEcTXjoyjgCkpQOXjjPM5lUMe7qPMWey+t/IYBl EEtNv70HELRRUVIWU5gMVRwbrDYfDUNxRi3CAdR7yBnX4GTOF7sdRbWUdO3HYc3R PkXpH65HcP+D1G3+twIBFw4Q1+lCFstPfw8jPt6IimKMjXD503MKQ0eELYJemuKD tUSx+6TsWXSP51NcpcrjYqEzzr2qhEPNShTCWwFDjLBKnIdHsaPGBnBFh4FQJpD6 Iwj5IdeT2qG6wt/Ey6Tj7Fi2Fx+XYD0Yawp81sx+u+1ZUD4ERX9sn1lRZpf0uWF3 D5skkrxSn9fYFZtDflfLLR2Hq2RXC1hLcavx50lTh7xpCLsRqC5eWpPLAa8BGjNZ XlC6Zw8nJ37OVxM7aR6sZa/At/T0y1uPjOJZJM5rE5GNxyZjcM0= =c4hE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+uncIoM9bJUI0yxk--