From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75BEC0037 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F17560608 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 8F17560608 Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm2 header.b=vBJgs1IQ X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2PMkw97aKZdm for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B33A260595 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:21 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org B33A260595 Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3365C01AE; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 18:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Jan 2024 18:18:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm2; t=1704237495; x=1704323895; bh=/NfPKmWTyjwjnkJX4HjknWes0dhr FuEOIvnplt+ZLwo=; b=vBJgs1IQjSnSrUoTY5nyqrBNlHhppRQU5/62pOplDzaM HFGf5xvz2G11tNxkFUCXQI6dClFdaIPa9jrTbczleoYDOTfVkmW6zK0cOWbiqv7+ Y/F+kvdnZHT1PYOr3xsdbWeGJPfIMUzZU2MeEx9rJFF12V3vYKbEKVKreHTnW5eG vAEA9pjXuA2zdzlTcBkgNIzwRr686VfDLrQZvyXn0HU68jyBBCGp41yLbYp7od5f J9qUUhVCIwl+6Jz41jPIOOGodx9i4OFpnza8Zpn7visqdVJ3SMVNLXWH9ABs+OwF nAilp9MbyKvZe0EQ3J4QeK0sGWSLLzq9y1MteMVXSA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdeggedgtdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfej tdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 18:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 413625F81D; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:11 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Gloria Zhao Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Greg Sanders Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] V3 Transactions are still vulnerable to significant tx pinning griefing attacks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:18:24 -0000 --wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 02, 2024 at 11:12:05AM +0000, Gloria Zhao wrote: > Hi Peter, >=20 > > You make a good point that the commitment transaction also needs to be > included > > in my calculations. But you are incorrect about the size of them. >=20 > > With taproot and ephemeral anchors, a typical commitment transaction > would have > > a single-sig input (musig), two taproot outputs, and an ephemeral anchor > > output. Such a transaction is only 162vB, much less than 1000vB. >=20 > Note that these scenarios are much less interesting for commitment > transactions with no HTLC outputs, so 162 isn't what I would use for the > minimum. What scenarios you consider "interesting" is not relevant. You can't pick an arbitrary minimum based on an interesting scenario. You should pick an actu= al relevant minimum. So with that in mind, let's ask the question: Do we think it's common for channels to be force closed without HTLCs pending? I believe the answer is likely to be yes, because channels are only used some of the time. Can we verify that? Well, I just checked my node, and out of the past 15 fo= rce closes, 12 had no HTLCs outstanding. 2 had one HTLC outstanding, and 1 had 2 HTLCs. I also checked a big node I'm connected to, fixedfloat. Again, out of the p= ast 15 force closes, 11 had no HTLCs outstanding, with 4 having 1 HTLC outstanding... but of those only 2 HTLCs were profitable to collect. The ot= her half cost more money in fees than the HTLC value. Looks to me like the supermajority of force closes are the most boring type. And those numbers would be even more tilted in that direction if Lightning implementations had better economics management. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmWUmbEACgkQLly11TVR LzdM7xAAlLehW2DBHOAq0zyulwsxaXceNfLzV1TbisythkHesY+CcsfRB0GMopfd KsS4KBaEUHjUqmPRsU3FYCcJYZ3j3iGGFQI0LGtPDzsjNl9Nhdr5+b35ydqU7xM5 DN5onEgIffvvQh53EWWri3IBvc5pJkqUqEgHDwETHFpEAeF1n7aBdfAowTBNWtLN Unz7k7iOEonrOfRY7kMb0ztIIAmTimu98MCA/LaqMmmW6VJP0eSmqRJ2D2wzIsx7 zHk7ytPjzCHEwF9HEOQoFN5hY5ESCZqZSqVLCn6MC6badxIDgQWqiN84JjJgdgh2 sJrG6LIIJ65QwyjJjVfEDhcuCptbS298/a8l0A11TTwkCnvVFT/OBUnZUtZS138X CzyTEnCjKEmBsEUmQegYJyM6dXNq/D7W/K7s2/TXdi2UexN0yVKvl6RMl/agzSq/ zWyhprU4XoK8omCpTOtXVENFU7QIGLBaQL6EHo2IhANmIAvkCSpxwb2oaQoQtCDT Qr5v4oOpup+CeRKSK8igUsBwY77qZIG0xgxdJw/rZNTCL9dCWC/HqdUFQQkVO4LT QSBBAlb07EEZ06SMaUultIHRllLy0RW9yr88dgkYNe2DTa9xrOJ+vE+nNPffpB+U hmPiI77GktEaIAZYufZB2RYOwZGhMHs+jSes/TRz1LRu0I7s8o4= =Fshp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+--