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[103.168.172.157]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s9-20020a05680810c900b003c23098ced8si1758193ois.5.2024.03.12.20.32.09 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 12 Mar 2024 20:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.157 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.157; Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfhigh.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E999E11400EB for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 23:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 12 Mar 2024 23:32:08 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrjeeggdeiudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfggtggusehgtderredttd ejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepieefleetgeeikeekvedvffdvvdejteeiieejgf dvvedvuefhgeejveeftdevjeetnecuffhomhgrihhnpeguvghlvhhinhhgsghithgtohhi nhdrohhrghdpphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtne curfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 23:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 187805F856; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 03:32:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 03:32:05 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: [bitcoindev] OP_Expire mempool behavior Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mDr+lEMoqAV+gaM5" Content-Disposition: inline X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=RYew02pi; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.157 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --mDr+lEMoqAV+gaM5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got a question re: the following comment on delvingbitcoin with regard to OP_Expire: > > nodes should require higher minimum relay fees for transactions close t= o > > their expiration height to ensure we don=E2=80=99t waste bandwidth on t= ransactions > > that have no potential to be mined > > This seems insufficient to solve the problem, unless the premium is so hi= gh > that it virtually guarantees that the transaction will be mined before it > expires. However, if the feerate were that high, wouldn=E2=80=99t OP_EXPI= RE simply > waste blockspace? If however the feerate of the transaction is merely > competitive, the presence of OP_EXPIRE creates a bandwidth-wasting vector= : an > attacker would submit e.g. OP_EXPIRE transactions at the bottom of the to= p > block and push them out of the top block with further OP_EXPIRE transacti= ons. > This way the attacker could issue a constant stream of transactions, but > never pay for more than a couple barely sliding in at the bottom of the > block. -https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-checkmaxtimeverify/581/8 This "bandwidth-wasting vector" requires the attacker to create actual fee-paying transactions, with a fee-rate sufficiently high to get mined in = the next block or so. This of course is very expensive by itself. If you already have a need to make such transactions, you can argue that th= e marginal cost to also use up that bandwidth is low. But that's already the = case with RBF: we allow any transaction to be replaced with RBF for a (by defaul= t) 1sat/vB additional cost to "pay for" the bandwidth of that replacement. OP_EXPIRE does not change this situation: you're still paying for an additi= onal 1sat/vB cost over the replaced transaction, as eventually one of your replacements will get mined. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/ZfEeNcX3ebyuYYRi%40petertodd.org. --mDr+lEMoqAV+gaM5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmXxHjMACgkQLly11TVR LzcoYA//YtkGk5R5s1SusXTI7cCSbeAj4eslEV73mGXm+1LERpHiZRDbXRdwuvbH L/xSIK92uVOL8u+nD6s3Ym3RgZ2/t9zEMfKliWh84x2XIQdG8zi0oOmjKLb6XtT8 Ztr77ued8ngCCl0b9fxtbbvWz1iGRUy+aFxUKb+zA+tG2F8IBDJ3etNkxl33+Hf+ wNkt6hN+vFURX2xOA+wmly0VrxVXjZ9fLMMpTEKs3G28wDjPSosWiySWit7RX1R2 fgyFxDGrkAl05CnIO4qJcKPdh2rpGSi+UUlXJouocJtnOgt9fgI/FEpnrEbiAfjy oIVp9U8MB2UpwaH/8ENc172BiY/o1bda0THxQJ7Yb+1wbhrWdjbRjrhzO1J7Wp6x JRyJhCCCxd1Nn8wjFM0/rn/twM3HiRuJFtJtJJ4uGzZ54eDAEQL/RNamY0hnIf8X xiRdITdQh4CMMxeoB4LGEIOsqC5KQEYRYpt0CxTNPGnUdQXs/AsRMux2kFYKP+VH RtNMEpOw7kLL6XfDwFeK6Pe6FKHftRJS2XiyCiqd1tuShDQdSwkuzOAxBP+W/BSC 1nD24FRYgjMG8Fr6SmPepjiM8j/1jR9ILi+ChWtEnFqFNWEGbGQ3lsFfE2q3cyPO R6MXI059SF+7xbHdS1/bdBU2lzkwsM5JP+BNHWZza7Vah08Fook= =V2AP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mDr+lEMoqAV+gaM5--