From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Tue, 09 Apr 2024 10:01:38 -0700 Received: from mail-oa1-f58.google.com ([209.85.160.58]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1ruEqo-0001jY-3R for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 10:01:38 -0700 Received: by mail-oa1-f58.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-229ede09748sf6547677fac.1 for ; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 10:01:37 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1712682092; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=Bpe9PojJuGl/wVmC5AlZaKSr5kmFefsVln6Jngb1dbfvK4JHirAOwqVYJd4qCEuSiX eUJ/0YrtCkqST6nYOqRf4oCBqdIO8dMdhbC6//BS5WjEVrw1h0Bum7wke1FT4ZlEnjgg RxbgigYJk4Jv+37rymOM9SOjVoHpc1oVtARoTJyf2a7Ygnxt2tpcQsBzmds0g/XoMuhh JfSOF3RBMX/1S0AsdH/xhBry77sx2aEi+sqY187gT86sf8lfdcdf4fpijHMtbwghQZim NR4kIX2C+vureE8z0nL3t7ylaLQ/Sc0qROZi3oDyzVoz/C/tTVqVRaI0XW0XZLwtcyc5 0sMg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=TeSHlak4VJjTmGk6CBYBBiMEa2ztf+uf1b9dHBiUFmA=; fh=eXGInBH/DKvpnjCjsnt1VdCb9gzktTZMM3nCxy8fV3Y=; b=T00L4vMcMFsGeHvMDuG/4e7ajdwFPFvQH/2V0WCADib3fs3ZCUOE26h36Gsi6h0Ugs MRMEWbOnFYenARU0NyRnAInFSLuPM5gR2OKfavAuRPPrVa0JwlZaGkVPrkoqkMVQvk27 tAu7vt0z/xXJJ3PvasJZu8yQ9Lw8zCyPC1hS3d1dLomMcK9Bsi/gf6YAoOq6a9sd9DGI X9TshHeACFjwowk3rWyqpEVEwXhDQLFFb7YyrluspQqHA10EN5cicjr3tr7/yZeKeBgh exxP0Vl9rMiPZ+3Z0Zl6/ij4j2/VeoHWBu0AQ8LTWYPKFrpPvv2mgqnNizbQRrfZNXv5 GMew==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b="rWgm/Gpe"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.159 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1712682092; x=1713286892; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TeSHlak4VJjTmGk6CBYBBiMEa2ztf+uf1b9dHBiUFmA=; b=n7DNClkleOJLNNlZi0tZy1zihZP1Hibo8G24LvRWHoZ/y7D9uBH2qIp76u4aXM1EvY NOk0uFz62OTw/ysFYd7ruG7X4erEtlYvaI5jp1qESNmETz7AYaREZimv6/GwKq16PRiW BotbQgHKdvusR6Yq9Nup62DRpsV6ffHy7gU18dwhw+YgDayj3BUsyZfPGrPBrfZVjGM+ bk8Jhi29gwrkeUJQ70HmNM6COOhCqFi32er29jTw2JgjEzH033yeXkLFLy5P/jQNa9Bo M4JnIxEJXeNVCtvZJqNVUxx24WrAMXQJi4Of1gw/ACsk3XX6qiQ0uKxki8Eq5oD85Gtu gx1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1712682092; x=1713286892; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=TeSHlak4VJjTmGk6CBYBBiMEa2ztf+uf1b9dHBiUFmA=; b=jMRsumhfbrBq2funqruor45FeROT0oPehRvcZeMcUcL4z8htfdYVRxvZ92W/97x93o MM/7uwMhYJeIDxGXkifxxAnsTh1Q5XyO95K5ZYA9ru4s2PAJn6dzLRvPAVErllS3lDG0 //BFRTfO+Erj3WCQB1ScdJzVMZ5bKXDMZH8pw9DK1p0aOUHktnCcnErHWHvrO2TEmkmz I8Ma4iCkhV5Rrv+YnGw8GjgVRR+1j3vR1UHDmQ7wMXFdokLCpICEg0bHI9dAUusf4/Vk DNNEEgcCXczSg0nfNisVfoyMvqwApHOmwEYHJ+4HgNwLuZIpWMlUAVUjkoVVpFRKryrY YMKg== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVmN/AOqOQpBDnpXY6ZmcZ/xj12loYc7nXqqHB4I+AdAnS8wFkErqp0xhhbEuDx96yE+5PPQXfKzQutr6bQr1xdAez050g= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxIstukqQbeR+Ue2bPIk700yXF3dH6e+tuv1z9eyU3WkNyCiIwh m+hylQgEznN3n+sABime6XigDnt1Pu0hy3yHRo8iZlc6l3bFpPlN X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFwmRTz1084iOK00j6enoqRg0VLuEaVz0up1Jsg35mgdbsZ+pEI6RvddKohm8d9tt1tDYPbvg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:d184:b0:22e:dfdb:7f05 with SMTP id a4-20020a056870d18400b0022edfdb7f05mr173303oac.52.1712682091292; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a05:6870:b154:b0:22e:d76a:b41f with SMTP id a20-20020a056870b15400b0022ed76ab41fls4061693oal.0.-pod-prod-04-us; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 10:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:3494:b0:21e:7aab:a93f with SMTP id ni20-20020a056871349400b0021e7aaba93fmr2341oac.8.1712682089959; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 10:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1a22:b0:3c5:fff5:115f with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3c608a5f1d2msb6e; Tue, 9 Apr 2024 09:48:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8289:b0:22a:828b:57ea with SMTP id q9-20020a056870828900b0022a828b57eamr86077oae.53.1712681321258; Tue, 09 Apr 2024 09:48:41 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1712681321; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=OCq4kUPCIJUlhyI2CRRvnJz8zI0y8HT2eB5s01k9WrbRwhH/7NN8FyoTBNmdU5EhES U+RgCKTmZYnf8MW+TObGM/2Jj0VloJvRKoivJ5+PJhWtj8rDfBzb4CfH1BC/gcm9v3ur oUd2fc2PgaCup7T5+6Qrnrjnclm9tTwnwvd2Sqd+Q480BIONx4JbOIjDFQoYoSLbKjA6 VWOe/dgdtd8rOzwJEvx8NAbHWg02u2pzob4F1E3hgu1rs8xwJxp/0px1cDPZOQ2XkfZM dHUZCPZo1bjKOumN7kOKqpnOr5cEQIr7afhd2HhF9udEV2g8eycd2qgQV8qORmBypoOf Q00w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=/XVeseF0t4dqG2DwS/34w3LeKieJAKgWOfEUi1jqmbI=; fh=qAkUFgesXJOBZlEhHhc6qjOrC9x9vwcQK9K5cSmyNz0=; b=O1GcvbDoxXsdABZwZNXTCBr3KlwPyw5CS+6nGc9PgarGs2lE399Vnf7/PK1J/LGQjX NRoLB7q07IFznJTZNvXalmp1uPesqYJGwur/rsSihXDfSD51G463xuZ4kxCJpDch1ssR Z4bsU4TzkKcZ52yNY5nIq61xZmzuSdSjeTgCHLAo9yHY86+1GcMS6Hu0L2AnTuTaBLfh DWl7K+7/2rsc9KxEJNXodUfEmavsP0SrwHG2toybSba3i+230F+sdNB/g2CYCc6C2JDc bH+AOT5MzmCPxR81Kdx3q4RcZMqM3ZmPBlRZTASU0Osj/ZI3ssIvkDm3FDH7ftyhcyj8 lRjg==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b="rWgm/Gpe"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.159 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fhigh8-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh8-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.159]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v42-20020a056870b52a00b0022e621de965si762805oap.1.2024.04.09.09.48.40 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 09 Apr 2024 09:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.159 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.159; Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailfhigh.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D1311400F5; Tue, 9 Apr 2024 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 09 Apr 2024 12:48:40 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrudehfedgudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtd erredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhht ohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepledvleelffdtudekudffjefgfeejue ehieelfedtgfetudetgeegveeutefhjedtnecuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggu rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 9 Apr 2024 12:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2512F5F85B; Tue, 9 Apr 2024 16:48:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 16:48:36 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: "David A. Harding" Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: The Future of Bitcoin Testnet Message-ID: References: <950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9a9fab2493an@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jyulslSAKEGKB+6g" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b="rWgm/Gpe"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.159 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --jyulslSAKEGKB+6g Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 06, 2024 at 01:04:16PM -1000, David A. Harding wrote: >=20 >=20 > On April 4, 2024 6:30:19 PM HST, Calvin Kim wrote: > >I support reseting testnet3. > > > >However, I'm more inclined towards keeping the rules the same. >=20 > What about fundamentally requiring BIP34 from the start of the next testn= et? I haven't heard anyone say this, but I assume the current testnet4 hav= ing reverted[1] to BIP30 is bad for utreexo? >=20 > For context, BIP30 invalidates any block that has a transaction with the = same txid as an entry in the current UTXO set. A utreexo node doesn't have= a complete copy of the utxo set, so it can't enforce BIP30 by itself. I d= on't think current designs support efficient proof of non-membership, so an= untrusted third party can't prove to a utreexo node that no current UTXO m= atches a given txid. Thus, as I understand it, Utreexo depends on every tr= ansaction having a unique txid. >=20 > BIP34 requires every coinbase transaction include a unique data push, fix= ing the only known way to include two bit-identical transactions in the sam= e valid blockchain. On blockchains such as mainnet and testnet4 that start= ed before BIP34, duplicate transactions remain possible in some rare edge c= ases (called the Block 1,983,702 Problem), so BIP30 support remains necessa= ry unless the underlying issue is further fixed (e.g. [2]). For new blockc= hains, like a potential testnet5, I think we should probably require BIP34= from genesis so that there's no need to ever rely on BIP30. NACK One of the purposes of testnet is to exercise edge cases in code, in an environment where mistakes don't cost money. It's a good thing that, eg, a utreexo testnet implementation has to deal with all the the same warts as i= t would have to eventually deal with in mainnet. In fact, ideally if we reset testnet we'd delibrately *add* non-unique txid= s to testnet to ensure that code related to that flaw is exercised; IIRC testnet currently does not have any. I also believe this principal is a reason to avoid resetting testnet: we ha= ve a large body of weirdness in the current testnet that serves as good test cas= es for any implementation. At the very least, if we do a testnet reset we shou= ld consider re-adding all those weird edge cases to the new testnet. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/ZhVxZN6eLiCpdQ/F%40petertodd.org. --jyulslSAKEGKB+6g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmYVcVAACgkQLly11TVR LzelIBAAiEmuFFVgz0IYZxbVTZ2ScUZU0r5U8Fky6rJxJR4J/6WsRyGymh8jojHQ mw2EAZjeQd6wJaIMtbxH5iVp/6pAgd3dGXBDVCw+4N3a+pB3A1UvWiuguurxUFyw QOIwawRTLosS98j7IbEot16ABJDyuVrkq/NlKCTWoMTdugc8jqv2Gx4NAD7/A6iC WFC5dC9h5gMLCtRjT1OnLtRBudMfA6XoZyPRCMfU/U1KCIQ7Z2PIoKf5zztqXqqv 2PKo8p5/OqmjKJLKfZGfbGzDu44gUw8IKNae+bmkCcXU7swMBi9LMQ5udMjiTW6m Wunm+IhpG+0UEdxYWez3iPcmIyp5zOpX0RE3NDCkbZktssHYsaKdcy9dhw8Hb26q oZ/G9cgp2obX8g4j/JF15mLlKSIf5duNAjtGPTmr/hIlMCwF9PjcsIJiY7245OMh H+NhA+NkvjtUu3dPggP06MtVfXkWTQwWojdbqgsGgcaJ9rHDvkbUb5Apngnj4n2V JNrlyTCETay2EJnAZMKsnIwQ0ZV2eJR6u5yK5XRwjedwOyE8iLdAk6bzgsedbPog R1gsUEoIocm7aQZmiVTOow5S9zA+AyB9qpIwuSwzk6YMCqNhzxAoYISfED7gPtyY WRL6Qc5J1uUO4RJRHM3IDiM9BWynDADl6a6yZtOq48Qb82czVDA= =k8v/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jyulslSAKEGKB+6g--