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[103.168.172.148]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 3f1490d57ef6-e02e65b7de8si13550276.2.2024.06.20.15.33.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 20 Jun 2024 15:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.148 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.148; Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailfout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A749F1380171 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 18:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 20 Jun 2024 18:33:48 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrfeeffedguddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujgesghdtre ertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthho uggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeivddvleeikeejueekgfdtleefgeehhe elffeuheetgefhleevjeefleegvefffeenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 18:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 153CA5F83C; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:33:46 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:33:46 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Libre Relay v27.1 released with lower 1.25x replacement threshold Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TgepFErliItSEnjn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=gRl7NA4N; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --TgepFErliItSEnjn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 04:33:47PM +0000, Peter Todd wrote: > Libre Relay/RBFR is already mitigating transaction pinning in the real wo= rld. > I've personally run into a few cases with LND nodes where anchor outputs = were > spent after the 16 block CSV timeout by third parties in a large transact= ion > that the LND node was not aware of, leading to LND creating a conflicting= , > higher-fee, transaction spending the anchor output and other outputs. Nor= mally > the conflict would fail to get mined due to the higher absolute fee pin. = But in > each case after propagation via Libre Relay nodes, F2Pool eventually mine= d the > higher fee-rate transaction after a few hours; I suspect F2Pool has an un= usual > short mempool expiration time. Lightning node operators should consider r= unning > Libre Relay for this purpose, as the existing Lightning protocol does hav= e some > pinning vulnerabilities. Here's a real world example of this pinning situation being resolved by RBF= R, in a transaction created by someone's LN node. You can see the RBFR replace= ment happening on one of my Libre Relay nodes, with the total fees being decreas= ed in exchange for a higher fee-rate: 2024-06-20T18:50:33Z [mempool] replacing tx 2bbc326c641fe88101fd7401721c1e8= a30ce78264e73e3fd67b7803e1fcffe93 (wtxid=3Df873e1e56be6b5ef21f30542a5823e1c= e75634fcab8143a5e53bf1aae91852ed) with 26aa0ea3b84d31b7ff90e428430a0e9dad68= ff24ccc87cece05bd7733c7b0e19 (wtxid=3D389a1f9cb2cfc0389bd7aad5037fc1d7fb2f0= 24921b110d8db6a3dba8fb6a134) for -0.00309094 additional fees, -58207 delta = bytes 2024-06-20T18:50:33Z [mempool] AcceptToMemoryPool: peer=3D41398: accepted 2= 6aa0ea3b84d31b7ff90e428430a0e9dad68ff24ccc87cece05bd7733c7b0e19 (wtxid=3D38= 9a1f9cb2cfc0389bd7aad5037fc1d7fb2f024921b110d8db6a3dba8fb6a134) (poolsz 877= 26 txn, 289021 kB) Transaction 26aa spent three anchor outputs in a 13.1sat/vB transaction tha= t was pinned by tx 2bbc at 5.37sat/vB, broadcast two days prior: 2024-06-18T13:18:50Z [mempool] AcceptToMemoryPool: peer=3D56868: accepted 2= bbc326c641fe88101fd7401721c1e8a30ce78264e73e3fd67b7803e1fcffe93 (wtxid=3Df8= 73e1e56be6b5ef21f30542a5823e1ce75634fcab8143a5e53bf1aae91852ed) (poolsz 750= 64 txn, 285641 kB) Fee-rates that low haven't been profitable to mine for months, so F2Pool profited by mining 26aa instead, even though the total fee was reduced; I a= lso checked logs on some non-RBFR nodes, and they never even saw 26aa. I know f= or a fact that F2Pool is directly connected to some Libre Relay nodes, so the mo= st likely route 26aa got to them was via Libre Relay. The fact this happened is a good example of how the "free-relay" argument against RBFR is bogus: tens of thousands of non-RBFR nodes wasted bandwidth propagating 2bbc, 95kB in size, with 1121 inputs. Yet even though just a do= zen or two RBFR nodes exist, the RBFR replacement was able to get to a miner, eventually getting into a block and invalidating 2bbc while only needing to= pay the cost to spend a single input. The miner in question probably doesn't ev= en run RBFR: they just allowed the transaction to eventually expire. Which Bit= coin Core does by default anyway after 2 weeks. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/ZnSuSh1FBGSYlPFE%40petertodd.org. --TgepFErliItSEnjn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmZ0rkgACgkQLly11TVR Lze2XBAAjtTbdzvdDMPgnCVBAls+Qwv3LwFZj0jbjZEA8jvZQO1fXKNURFxlFZa7 reWkz4Csnw9sZ7I6gBtxf/VJ74v4pIMK0QmKbfm3Qubth4zso22E/rBH5YbtlDDN kOJefFI0Ne3NKrZIvnzr79f6auSBN73P9JZawl5o91RLNja6tkI5t9EUuPT6wIZH qZmeo6Dws26RUTujUWPmvlQs0QI+uzAC/TwBwXW3ngUSplteE13JN29oDTwv64nj 9Dh44MWP4las9O1TTgoV4PqaEmtpWqu/FpmfXN78YlS7YOPVLPNxc6wFhPDlJHNI c8GfMBzyC9doL1B5FZEJzxiZaL4gCC8er8LbdE7WohgD0l/L3u11yYGBmeS0Cvtn Bl9vhlmc2LSmWZFK3lEdJy4nTY27sSTyVncDYxm6dLwIT+SH+I8emewoqnoMTGE/ 6TJg1XjS1TqbebVh0hLQxIbMArvwDNuCJ9NQ4gShifrTesMK8L/ms+AvITqAX1WX J6/XLxdNu7sBO/k7vWE2SMdGYPEsJqXBJB0LxmOcdDHZpR8spWQ4nzxXuupJZjag eOYJDfG20n5x3yNN3F6V4W/U+FPGHuFWEErLubB2RL0mSYhkPUkaDvCyAebU93hb 0cBNwJXJEcppVKFJ5a+lDSJg6MMYtZrPPji4kG3ateadBsGSqNQ= =xCAe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TgepFErliItSEnjn--