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[103.168.172.149]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9443c01a7336-1fd6f43064dsi2520455ad.13.2024.07.22.13.07.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.149 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.149; Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27DE1380280; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:07:05 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeftddrheejgddugeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtd erredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhht ohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeeggefhheefvdeijedvtdfguedtvd evheffvdfhieeigffffeeugedvudejudevnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtgho mhdpuggvlhhvihhnghgsihhttghoihhnrdhorhhgpdhpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgv sehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2B4305F83F; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:06:57 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:06:57 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: "David A. Harding" Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] RBFR makes the CPFP carve-out obsolete with cluster mempool, without upgrading LN nodes; TRUC/V3 does not Message-ID: References: <0eeb34c87b4cd7c9165983dc3a613550@dtrt.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yP7q3x4oa9g2R/MJ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0eeb34c87b4cd7c9165983dc3a613550@dtrt.org> X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=Umaffq2A; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.149 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --yP7q3x4oa9g2R/MJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 06:43:14AM -1000, David A. Harding wrote: > On 2024-07-22 01:45, Peter Todd wrote: > > TRUC meanwhile isn't even a drop-in solution, and requires everyone to > > upgrade before cluster mempool is even possible. > > The proposed BIP for TRUC[1] is indeed entirely opt-in and would require > all users of CPFP-CO (e.g. LN anchors channels) to upgrade their > software and switch to a new commitment transactions format, which > currently requires closing and reopening all anchors channels. There's > work on improving upgrade mechanisms in LN, but it would still be a pain > and a major delay to cluster mempool to depend on every LN user > upgrading. > > However, there has also been significant discussion and analysis[2] of an > imbued-semantics form of TRUC that could be retroactively applied to > LN-style anchor outputs (which are the only users of CPFP-CO we know > about). In that case, nobody needs to upgrade before cluster mempool > becomes possible. > > In my previous email, I assumed you were familiar with the imbued > semantics proposal; I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I am aware of that proposal. It is not a proposal with "significant discussion and analysis", your link, [2], has three posts in total, with discussion ending in Febuary, with only the OP having any significant content. Both replies to the idea noted potential incompatibilites with existing implementations. I'm not aware of any running code nor any significant discussion amongst LN implementations and other stakeholders. The idea hasn't even been posted to this mailing list. That's why I never brought it up: the idea seems to have died out. Frankly, unless you can point to actual "significant discussion and analysis" of the idea, it's dishonest and toxic of you to portray it as such as you should know better. RBFR has had more "significant discussion and analysis" than this idea in this very thread. Personally, I think it might not be an unreasonable hack before something better like RBFR gets implemented. But it's only a hack. And if anything, it strongly suggests that actually permanently specifying TRUC/V3 is an unnecessary complication. > -Dave > > [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/158acdbbbf8ef13f6b345b6281a96e88e20d2cf9/bip-truc.mediawiki#user-content-Specification > [2] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/analysis-of-attempting-to-imbue-ln-commitment-transaction-spends-with-v3-semantics/527 -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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