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[103.168.172.148]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 006d021491bc7-5d608d911e2si119142eaf.1.2024.07.30.12.38.17 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.148 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.148; Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B8813804D2; Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:38:17 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeftddrjeeggddugeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtroertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpedutdffleekiedtfefgteefjefhffeiffevleegtdfhueeffeejveeljeekfefh ieenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrghdpnhgspghrtghpthhtoheptd X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 816F35F83F; Tue, 30 Jul 2024 19:38:17 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 19:38:17 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: "David A. Harding" Cc: Antoine Riard , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] A "Free" Relay Attack Taking Advantage of The Lack of Full-RBF In Core Message-ID: References: <99f8b3b5-996e-41a4-bca8-eb1ddcba4ef3n@googlegroups.com> <4e959cdbe70b1a3b9f1adb37fe3b986e@dtrt.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="n+bJ/YzemJOvNThF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4e959cdbe70b1a3b9f1adb37fe3b986e@dtrt.org> X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=FgfoCoVl; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --n+bJ/YzemJOvNThF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 06:57:17PM -1000, David A. Harding wrote: > Given the first point and the last point, I'm not sure how viable the > attack is (but, as I said, I'm not sure I understand it). Estimating or > manipulating feerates correctly for over 144 blocks in a row sounds > difficult. Counterparties being able to deprive Mallory of profit seems > like a major weakness. It is not. I've actually *accidentally* exploited this type of pinning vector a few times in Lighting channels by simply force closing them at times when fee-rates were high. I've even twice managed to delay the force close of a channel by testing out justice transactions by broadcasting a low fee-rate, revoked commitment, which the counterparty node did not notice. Instead, the channel just stayed in limbo for a few days until the node finally got in a normal force-close using the non-revoked state after fees reduced. In both cases, both endpoints were LND using compact block filters (I was running both nodes in these tests). IIUC the LND compat block filter implementation does not track mempool transactions, so it only notices revoked commitment transactions when they appear in blocks (notice how this means that the lack of package relay will render LND's fee-bumping code potentially useless if the conflicting commitment transaction is equal or greater fee/fee-rate). I haven't tried fully exploiting this particular scenario by maximizing the number of HTLCs in flight; I was just trying out stuff manually. Someone should. It should be relatively easy to automate this class type of attack by simply picking opportunities for it based on fee rates. It's quite common for fee spikes to cause conditions where you can easily predict that fees won't go below certain levels for many blocks in the future, multiple days even. Your claim that "estimating feerates correctly for over 144 blocks in a row sounds difficult" is very wrong. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/ZqlBKVXBKKIurBPk%40petertodd.org. --n+bJ/YzemJOvNThF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmapQScACgkQLly11TVR Lzdb7Q//WaAy9wiYZ7S1OM4miCe8t9ayrLO9IUI8XVYwNOjVINccp/KGVEv7WTqB HMIRIafesOq3NnwLQU+BBqffCu9f5ZycW/8/YhEBz211KLQ2eFJBFVQQpPMOLZrM gCCznyJQ/MpCWIZ+J7N7FY5xy8Qypgz1232/aHynFZEyMPZDIbrkJa4loixVklfH 0kY9ypvOwrhMpSZPFViKe6rtfXp/cW2S61jZ9+MkE2NxLzNbbk/4iWhvIIIiru0U L0pml6E8A1vvUADMCnlC/Y3jjN71X4QtqjwcEylllNxU1fPMtYOl5UA0XvJ85+2J KdontP7TXqZ/1lWjciOcxetnFugami03ug9B9VgJbLCB3I3mzLeMCT9Ap1Cs8ii7 YjUGcXWxvyWkiJ3EixfUnttyR7Oo++hn2Hd/5+96t3KXt3/bduTZkb/P/OgEiSjd rBZTBypqJdCGOBBwUYyp3/C9Y8VLDXoHAfQt+XgkuRqGRkH0twy6jimGAL3RKpas sr2f9UofaoSnew8wWxrocX7x0HOEoaVU5Lx+u9LtTbZHdpXYHcEOLoE3atsmMysr 9ZRbbOdGGFVScbqfSElDIffuke9Kw8s00o7tq6EhtK25M/F0JTrRn4ODy2NuebSt GKqKgeR17aDnPCnq4i2Nd6ofNO2GZSuMPFU6giIwpOVmHp4v2i8= =XlnP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --n+bJ/YzemJOvNThF--