From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from silver.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2497C016E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:23:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by silver.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D1125D1D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:23:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from silver.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wr0+6+qyC4aH for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:23:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-40138.protonmail.ch (mail-40138.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.138]) by silver.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD4225CF1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:23:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:23:01 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail; t=1592284982; bh=wNadIlQig2B2zC/J6FHqJ4k9Xckq8x4cfjKqKATJQ5M=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=jZ2rAhJ30uwEZTaEuUqqoBZxzC+quKIM1BS7u7T/cjTbGf4P1OytTrJ2EtIeAN1xL E3UA3kdFhagRLz2o9H8yt0EIvNjMJCCOIW6gikuHos8KgO6q480MF4w/d722Ma9mME XxZ2PqhKOwIIi/GmvtBQBiga4PvqAREIHyw+5aSw= To: ZmnSCPxj , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion From: ZmnSCPxj Reply-To: ZmnSCPxj Message-ID: <_VqB84inr1oM8O9n4r1BZ_t7BPRFaJQ3ifZqnsLwFKNlQAKtPdwUFK825Wja0PTyllzLERlmiWWMLSiamYR83d7MXH3ERCON-u-IkH5R5XA=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7BPgx65Eh5HE5wLIqeG9G-bdsxxkDJJIzcyOJvS6_FIxXfA10sbFe5dfwQDNiEOExZ9Y72lHq88lKzcBRIFnYGFY5I2vwk6Dg7BcCMjmS2Y=@protonmail.com> References: <7cWQJzkWNEZCI2fYYrJCFxrmGfDGFAtsOyGpXRmB-g4Qhm2jzhyxLtuOIpJAr2CMJjAjri12lmR-h96ev3NWqaTgDtc_NN0yhyVxuIlBuzU=@protonmail.com> <7BPgx65Eh5HE5wLIqeG9G-bdsxxkDJJIzcyOJvS6_FIxXfA10sbFe5dfwQDNiEOExZ9Y72lHq88lKzcBRIFnYGFY5I2vwk6Dg7BcCMjmS2Y=@protonmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] CoinPool, exploring generic payment pools for Fun and Privacy X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:23:08 -0000 Good morning Antoine, Gleb, and list, In some ways, CoinPool is really part of a swarm of ideas: * CoinPool * Multiparticipant (N > 2) channels * Channel factories * Nodelets What CoinPool and multiparticipant channels buy us is better flexibility wi= th forwarding. For example, if we compare a multiparty channel to a channel factory, suppo= se there exists three entities A, B, and C in the multiparty construction. In a channel factory, each entity has to decide how much of its liquidity t= o tie up in a channel with a specific other peer in the multiparty construc= tion. This limits the practical payment forwarding when integrated into the Light= ning Network. In a CoinPool, any of the entities can forward to any of the other entities= , without tying their liquidity to a channel specifically with those entiti= es. However, in a CoinPool, once any of the entities goes offline, the entire C= oinPool can no longer update. This is in contrast with channel factories, where, if entity C goes offline= , the channel between A and B remains useable for forwarding. In other words, channel factories degrade gracefully. Further, we already have a decent solution for liquidity redistribution: JI= T Routing by Rene Pickhardt. Thus the liquidity issue with channel factories are somewhat mitigated (and= if all participants are online, they also have the option of redistributin= g channel funds *inside* the factory as well, not just JIT routing), while = gaining graceful degradation of the factory. Another is that pathfinding algorithms work best if graph edges are edges a= nd not in fact some kind of twisted multi-edge that connects more than two = nodes together. On the other hand, the participants of a CoinPool could create a "virtual n= ode" that is a MuSig of their individual keys, and report that as the "real= " node on LN gossip (each of them pretending to have a large channel with t= hat virtual node), so that the rest of the network only sees edges that lin= k two nodes (and existing pathfinding algos still work seamlessly, never re= alizing that this node is actually a virtual node that represents a CoinPoo= l). This is basically them creating a sort of Nodelet node, which other nodes c= annot make channels to, and which uses channels with the Nodelet node as pr= oxies for the CoinPool as a whole. Regards, ZmnSCPxj