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[2a00:d0c0:200:0:1c7b:a6ff:fee0:8ea4]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-4909d177631si978335e9.2.2026.06.01.14.24.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 01 Jun 2026 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 2a00:d0c0:200:0:1c7b:a6ff:fee0:8ea4 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:d0c0:200:0:1c7b:a6ff:fee0:8ea4; Received: from farbauti.uberspace.de (farbauti.uberspace.de [185.26.156.235]) by mailgate02.uberspace.is (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BC58180135 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2026 23:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7951 invoked by uid 989); 1 Jun 2026 21:24:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO unknown) (::1) by farbauti.uberspace.de (Haraka/3.1.1) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 01 Jun 2026 23:24:07 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2026 14:24:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP 3 and issues on BIPs To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com References: Content-Language: en-US From: Murch In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Bar: --- X-Rspamd-Report: BAYES_HAM(-2.999986) XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01) MIME_GOOD(-0.1) X-Rspamd-Score: -3.089986 X-Original-Sender: murch@murch.one X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@murch.one header.s=uberspace header.b=O1yIzUx9; spf=pass (google.com: domain of murch@murch.one designates 2a00:d0c0:200:0:1c7b:a6ff:fee0:8ea4 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=murch@murch.one Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Hi AJ, I get the concern that in the case of the BIP Owners disagreeing with=20 critics about a raised issue or whether it has been addressed=20 satisfactorily, the issue may not be recorded in a manner that the=20 critics would consider comprehensive. Maybe directly starting with the summaries would work better than=20 gathering comments from random people, but given the low participation=20 in the repository I=E2=80=99m still not convinced that there would be=20 significant interest in contributing to these summaries. So, I=E2=80=99m st= ill=20 convinced that it would most likely become an additional burden for the=20 BIP Editors to collect, curate, and referee these submissions, and would=20 probably still be slanted to the opinions of a few active participants=20 like in the prior system. I agree that needing to dig through so many different sources sucks and=20 a better system would be better. I=E2=80=99m not sure that just having the = BIP=20 Editors curate submissions is enough. I=E2=80=99m gonna mull more on this and would be curious what others have t= o say. Murch On 2026-05-31 00:12, Anthony Towns wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2026 at 11:28:49AM -0700, Murch wrote: >> BIP3 >> already recommends that the Rationale should record relevant objections = or >> important concerns that were raised and addressed as this proposal was >> developed. >=20 > Right, I'm particularly referring to issues that aren't (sufficiently) > addressed here. >=20 > If it helps, consider the user story: "As a BIP author, if there's a > problem/concern with my (draft) BIP that I don't currently know how > to address (or perhaps don't currently have time to address), how > should I track that concern and ensure that it's known to potential > collaborators/implementers?" >=20 > My previous best answer for APO was "file an issue against > bitcoin-inquisition/bitcoin" which doesn't feel very satisfactory. >=20 >> Open issues are also already often recorded in Draft BIPs. >=20 > Can you point to some examples? That sounds like a match for what I was > thinking. ("git grep -i open.issue" in the master branch has no hits, > afaics) >=20 >> We now >> allow linking to multiple relevant discussions=E2=80=94new threads shoul= d be added >> as a document matures. In an ideal world this would already cover at lea= st >> the first two classes of feedback. >=20 > I think there probably should be a second space for issues that the > author disputes; that may happen due to the criticisms being invalid, > or the author being unreasonable -- having a third party being able to > make a "yeah, this is a reasonable thing for people to be aware of" > without compromising the "BIPs are owned by their authors" principle > would be valuable. >=20 >> In principle I am open to the idea to collect a summary of the discussio= n >> and dissent in a dedicated space, but there was hardly any commentary ev= en >> when anyone could post it without any friction. >=20 > From my perspective, the comments wiki wasn't valuable for either > summaries (it just contains random people's hot-takes on the topic) or > for discussion (there's not a wide range of people responding to issues). > So the friction there is just "reading/commenting is a complete waste > of time". >=20 > A list of open issues that the author agrees are worth paying attention t= o > in their own BIP would be worth paying attention to, I think, except for > the "oh, the game theory optimal approach is to reject all open issues; > that way more people will think my BIP is perfect" flaw. >=20 >> Why should we expect this >> more arduous approach to have more adoption than the comment system? My >> expectation would be that going via pull requests and curation would not >> create more commentary, but the same amount of commentary would increase >> work and decision making for the BIP Editors, especially if the expectat= ion >> is that BIP Editors collect such feedback for BIPs when the authors or >> dissenters do not submit it. >=20 > I think the purpose would be to summarise commentary, not generate it. Fo= r > example, if you wanted to know "what are the concerns people have with > BIP 119 so I can judge them for myself", how would you get that answer? > Or, if you asked an AI, how would it generate a good answer? I think > the only real approach is to scour the archives of this list, delving, > optech, various pull requests, and maybe also IRC logs or twitter debates > or podcast or talk transcripts? >=20 >>> I think this would be a substantial improvement on the state of the art >>> for things like BIP 39 and its "Unanimously discourage for implementati= on" >>> criticisms,[=E2=80=A6] >> This issue has already been addressed. When BIP3 was deployed, I removed= all >> Comment URL headers that linked to empty wikis, and only left those that= had >> content.=C2=A0BIP3 empowers=C2=B9 BIP Owners to decide whether to remove= or keep >> Comment Summary and Comment URL from their BIPs. To be fair, this >> information may need to be spread more broadly. >=20 > Hmm, filed as https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/2184 maybe. >=20 >>> [=E2=80=A6] or, eg, creating issues against bitcoin-inquisition/bitcoin= [0], or commenting on old, closed PRs [1]. >> The latter was my mistake. I should have just emailed BIP authors direct= ly >> instead of commenting on the ancient PRs that submitted the correspondin= g >> documents, or opened up a PR to propose the changes to get the authors= =E2=80=99 >> input on them. >=20 > That wasn't meant as a criticism; just trying to figure out something > better to do in future. >=20 > Cheers, > aj >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= a00e00b8-b794-4462-a705-0e209120aad4%40murch.one.