From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 03:46:51 -0700 Received: from mail-yw1-f188.google.com ([209.85.128.188]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rzwcs-00027Z-7P for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Thu, 25 Apr 2024 03:46:50 -0700 Received: by mail-yw1-f188.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61b17188625sf1879877b3.2 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2024 03:46:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1714042004; x=1714646804; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o2u31v4DEilKim/dEKPPG3CIEbqHRX9t3TbkYmS2i9U=; b=uyIrQUqkyBTKi5knmPyMhj57lPETLA21HGd3TB+1+qBh51/ixyghE6UeL9Dn+w5zFB qC0NVN72Yc0fRN9LnVV7CJ9gSclWMg2aATUuygfwD/IkwPK+W+oeGAnQ2L8otXOkMPda QnoqFFybpMWf5Tk2roMhVnTOBG11gr4ta4ylqyAP3SxhIOMHAC1e0CEojtGlq2f+iqZE CkdVlAKhlKjIRg9lvLHp5J4OhnlYRjB52OamgB9f4Ckj/71awrL0O/nketlCJXjqcW3R kc0+eGnBOwJ9QGpRiYbaACrRGKmGaxeuUYBgmVBfWDLisZKgrUIT6x3xk7L6YzfqEiwC BVrg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1714042004; x=1714646804; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o2u31v4DEilKim/dEKPPG3CIEbqHRX9t3TbkYmS2i9U=; b=ZXZgizpfWeeFuMULz1zHLuYu/hfYyrH4uI/OpksDEHsVBvoXW7vNq4p/6rdOFi6dyt PMGbhTFXI6rrHTl7uyPewSz75bIi65jzrLPycAKHahheE3Hokllgkn6r/MAfl/t9cLkM QzqIXS8/nkZP5YtOgmw6FtRbOFU+8hAKoSIE5wjAq8e8dvyDHOPID/M+aRHxRVV8qE0L SNDoMzicFtEkomiwel8MdMPAAfRg/B52yR9tUd/WwRffn+bzLgU20r2xlXS3CHoxiYdc LXuLMMxzftdfNkeUmqpv6vDFXhF4r8DGxy90DkIPU6TimltHr+vmd8EpdTlN8LP9XH+S MLBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714042004; x=1714646804; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=o2u31v4DEilKim/dEKPPG3CIEbqHRX9t3TbkYmS2i9U=; b=c8g4k65/Sp//cdf7E3FXk/bhJbXejMb/4giNuMMR3wYBVfH+kgGndIu3O+/MtSHcK6 Jp6KpAMjqogeAyowI/NiNDP4MNLpHm4jXYFnXyz/re7opys1G1+AeamPxfTon7qOjb0r NRyb6U5Rzc25dSFsyu4uI9Daa23a0GgT1gHAkkJGUJH6Stmf/hIt8YAEckC3pEzGsGdy QhZP2Tbqf3AegLy+sg4XKhAcinZV8ExTEynV+dDrevx3bOLaRWWTyueA3NC4uKJx4edb MJkoKNmbv40k5PgbBPIFvfNWLe2NPid9JJK6/FUBYyYeKCO55389DL1NSlP/cp12X9v9 51YQ== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCX6T4yV1YfT2zdfiMkekxupc0Lx9UmyG5ojEyeQQeP2a0OiE14aK0A4q4PvO6ksLEs1O31wn5OeB66v+svuDFudMbaqDFY= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxVLwN62tW0Pi2WclNifXW5PdiyJ+eePMbbPKZrWQQKqnIzPqwu 0Q+PyokuY8ZRYm1n+m1WLvyTevqeVDgWo6H3cGlar+HNyEFPmE09 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHBT9uPAiJwdnEgrrNyRYKxkqlUHxO/4Xz4/1C3IASRONrsxGPTv50LTiJfixT+BuhUxiVvKA== X-Received: by 2002:a25:6b44:0:b0:de5:4f72:46bf with SMTP id o4-20020a256b44000000b00de54f7246bfmr4300355ybm.5.1714042004308; Thu, 25 Apr 2024 03:46:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:db09:0:b0:dcd:a08f:c83a with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de5861e7b04ls1211229276.2.-pod-prod-05-us; Thu, 25 Apr 2024 03:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a81:7155:0:b0:615:130a:2503 with SMTP id m82-20020a817155000000b00615130a2503mr1246257ywc.8.1714042002803; Thu, 25 Apr 2024 03:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:fca:b0:611:2a20:d0cc with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61b84d1e16dms7b3; Wed, 24 Apr 2024 23:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:72c:b0:dda:c4ec:7db5 with SMTP id l12-20020a056902072c00b00ddac4ec7db5mr653347ybt.4.1714027377096; Wed, 24 Apr 2024 23:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 23:42:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Antoine Riard To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <070755a0-10e9-4903-9524-dd8ef98c1c8b@achow101.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Adding New BIP Editors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_49814_1790430370.1714027376707" X-Original-Sender: antoine.riard@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) ------=_Part_49814_1790430370.1714027376707 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_49815_1746854077.1714027376707" ------=_Part_49815_1746854077.1714027376707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi AJ, > When choosing personnel, asking for public objections is probably a > pretty bad approach. It's hurtful to the person being objected to, both > when the objections are accurate and when they aren't, and, especially > if the objections end up being ignored, it's harmful to the working > environment when the person who objected has to work with the person > they objected to in future. > > Personally, I'd suggest focussing more on "are they demonstrably doing > useful work? yes, then they keep or increase their perms; no, then > decrease their perms". (Probably couldn't have done anything different > this time around, but maybe something to keep in mind for the future) > Along those lines, it might be worth having a review in six months or > so to see which of the editors and processes have been effective, and > which ones haven't, and see if there's anything worth changing further > to increase the wins and diminish the losses. Could be worth making > something like that a regular thing (once a year?); for the Debian > Technical Committee, we had somewhat similar problems with inactivity > and a lack of renewal, which (IMO) was fixed in a big part just by > having a policy of saying "okay, longest serving member gets booted, > remaining folks should invite someone new" once a year. I'm respectfully dissenting here. Decade(s)-old IETF / BIP standards are kinda open-source commons after-all, and this is very expected than someone who is aspiring to get perms in their maintenance have to answer objections from the non-permissioned people enjoying usage of the commons. Yes, it can hurt to have to answers public objections on your person when you're aspiring to open-source perms. I think that's part of the process, if you wish a comfortable job you can always go to work at $YOUR_LOCAL_BIG_TECH (tm). Additionally, one can wish to be sure that the candidate have sufficient level of ethics / personal integrity. Especially, to serve as a check-and-balance when one has to conduct privileged actions in the execution of permissions. W.r.t, I can only invite anyone to read the ACM Code of Ethics: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics (Far from perfect as ethics is a dynamic concept after-all, though can provide guidelines if you're entitled with perms in this space, and you don't know how to act in a given instance). Apart of that, I think the idea of the longest serving members in a set of maintainers / editors without substantial activity getting booted every X and remaining folks can invite someone new can serve as a not so bad rule of thumb. To conclude, I'm rejoicing too on seeing concrete results in the nomination of BIP editors, which doesn't forbid ulterior discussions on improving its process. Best, Antoine Le mercredi 24 avril 2024 =C3=A0 16:36:38 UTC+1, Anthony Towns a =C3=A9crit= : > On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 07:14:34PM +0000, 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin=20 > Development Mailing List wrote: > > Since we're now past the deadline of April 19th, I'd like to inform > > everyone of what will happen on Monday. > > > > There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have there > > been any suggestions on choosing a subset of them since my last email. > > As such, there is rough consensus on adding Kanzure, Murch, Jonatack, > > Ruben, and Roasbeef as BIP editors, and they will be added on Monday > > April 22nd. > > Thanks for pushing this forward, Ava! > > One thing though: > > > There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have there > > When choosing personnel, asking for public objections is probably a > pretty bad approach. It's hurtful to the person being objected to, both > when the objections are accurate and when they aren't, and, especially > if the objections end up being ignored, it's harmful to the working > environment when the person who objected has to work with the person > they objected to in future. > > Personally, I'd suggest focussing more on "are they demonstrably doing > useful work? yes, then they keep or increase their perms; no, then > decrease their perms". (Probably couldn't have done anything different > this time around, but maybe something to keep in mind for the future) > > Along those lines, it might be worth having a review in six months or > so to see which of the editors and processes have been effective, and > which ones haven't, and see if there's anything worth changing further > to increase the wins and diminish the losses. Could be worth making > something like that a regular thing (once a year?); for the Debian > Technical Committee, we had somewhat similar problems with inactivity > and a lack of renewal, which (IMO) was fixed in a big part just by > having a policy of saying "okay, longest serving member gets booted, > remaining folks should invite someone new" once a year. > > Anyway, it's easy to quibble about what the best process might be, > but actual results are more important, so thanks again Ava! > > Cheers, > aj > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/a32f9994-059d-44dd-83c7-c3bb732888adn%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_49815_1746854077.1714027376707 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi AJ,

> When choosing personnel, asking for public= objections is probably a
> pretty bad approach. It's hurtful to th= e person being objected to, both
> when the objections are accurate= and when they aren't, and, especially
> if the objections end up b= eing ignored, it's harmful to the working
> environment when the pe= rson who objected has to work with the person
> they objected to in= future.
>
> Personally, I'd suggest focussing more on "are= they demonstrably doing
> useful work? yes, then they keep or incr= ease their perms; no, then
> decrease their perms". (Probably could= n't have done anything different
> this time around, but maybe some= thing to keep in mind for the future)

> Along those lines, it= might be worth having a review in six months or
> so to see which = of the editors and processes have been effective, and
> which ones = haven't, and see if there's anything worth changing further
> to in= crease the wins and diminish the losses. Could be worth making
> so= mething like that a regular thing (once a year?); for the Debian
> = Technical Committee, we had somewhat similar problems with inactivity
= > and a lack of renewal, which (IMO) was fixed in a big part just by
> having a policy of saying "okay, longest serving member gets booted,=
> remaining folks should invite someone new" once a year.

I'm respectfully dissenting here. Decade(s)-old IETF / B= IP standards
are kinda open-source commons after-all, and this is= very expected than
someone who is aspiring to get perms in their= maintenance have to answer
objections from the non-permissioned = people enjoying =C2=A0usage of the
commons.

Yes, it can hurt to have to answers public objections on your person<= /div>
when you're aspiring to open-source perms. I think that's part of= the
process, if you wish a comfortable job you can always go to = work at
$YOUR_LOCAL_BIG_TECH (tm). Additionally, one can wish to = be sure
that the candidate have sufficient level of ethics / pers= onal integrity.
Especially, to serve as a check-and-balance when = one has to conduct
privileged actions in the execution of permiss= ions.

W.r.t, I can only invite anyone to read th= e ACM Code of Ethics:
https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics

(Far from perfect as ethics is a dynamic concept after-a= ll, though can
provide guidelines if you're entitled with perms i= n this space, and you
don't know how to act in a given instance).=

Apart of that, I think the idea of the longest = serving members in a
set of maintainers / editors without substan= tial activity getting booted
every X and remaining folks can invi= te someone new can serve as a not
so bad rule of thumb.

To conclude, I'm rejoicing too on seeing concrete results= in the nomination
of BIP editors, which doesn't forbid ulterior = discussions on improving its
process.

= Best,
Antoine

Le mercredi 24 avril 2024 =C3=A0 16:36= :38 UTC+1, Anthony Towns a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 07:14:34PM +0000, &= #39;Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List wrote:
> Since we're now past the deadline of April 19th, I'd like = to inform
> everyone of what will happen on Monday.
>
> There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have = there
> been any suggestions on choosing a subset of them since my last em= ail.
> As such, there is rough consensus on adding Kanzure, Murch, Jonata= ck,
> Ruben, and Roasbeef as BIP editors, and they will be added on Mond= ay
> April 22nd.

Thanks for pushing this forward, Ava!

One thing though:

> There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have = there

When choosing personnel, asking for public objections is probably a
pretty bad approach. It's hurtful to the person being objected to, = both
when the objections are accurate and when they aren't, and, especia= lly
if the objections end up being ignored, it's harmful to the working
environment when the person who objected has to work with the person
they objected to in future.

Personally, I'd suggest focussing more on "are they demonstrab= ly doing
useful work? yes, then they keep or increase their perms; no, then
decrease their perms". (Probably couldn't have done anything d= ifferent
this time around, but maybe something to keep in mind for the future)

Along those lines, it might be worth having a review in six months or
so to see which of the editors and processes have been effective, and
which ones haven't, and see if there's anything worth changing = further
to increase the wins and diminish the losses. Could be worth making
something like that a regular thing (once a year?); for the Debian
Technical Committee, we had somewhat similar problems with inactivity
and a lack of renewal, which (IMO) was fixed in a big part just by
having a policy of saying "okay, longest serving member gets boote= d,
remaining folks should invite someone new" once a year.

Anyway, it's easy to quibble about what the best process might be,
but actual results are more important, so thanks again Ava!

Cheers,
aj

--
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