From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Fri, 02 May 2025 19:05:58 -0700 Received: from mail-oo1-f62.google.com ([209.85.161.62]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1uB2GL-0006qZ-Bg for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Fri, 02 May 2025 19:05:58 -0700 Received: by mail-oo1-f62.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-6064d0103f8sf2309222eaf.2 for ; Fri, 02 May 2025 19:05:57 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746237952; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=dhL1XuOJFidRWKjIgkRw/3DBH6Lz/D+cYwyk5D1gLGEya3vCiSP7rWuVuDieYdFw8l AqhwiVag6Fdlmaoj3rDGr6seXOkfFcPXtgdu2y/m0V2evTvX07xT+LKq3q09l4TB3xdv a00AJmJikr3+qByjKzi0EzkxiqgDW1YZHcGUsEwjLkhif5FhK0MkZIiK6oIj4nWRFuoo SuX91RHSTIYdntKa1yvY3Y3XIwzkoeRQAJWWiUJN4aw2l94xuKKWcpeljWx6/0aih52u JA5bq8PSPY2jjjb9MGuDcBXZ3KVqlBpeFmdVK9gLEd2m85JGT9XuDtUEIA2uaUbywnXz fxpg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=uhBb7fwDfDdrB5KvOxa0hjXRwa3qGt1uNcJyAeR0sD4=; fh=dOpq/jm7qU13rkRzqyDQ5tBufpYUCS7WMKLU3Bh0Ez0=; b=lnN/mBbzdg/UdzkrXh7nEaAyNbNWjKrJsXzwQLyXcyAr6GkkZCWQ8yFRzD7x+f0QEp SdgbVADx2wc6lBFw+7hEz5TyRgL9S6Hn6ktbUQ1yqNkgpUX3w3So41i+N38tCSxLbpWl jKKtqEWuon7OI8MrKreVaS7fPt3iUupqOwxHBwAk/gpYRJN+Uba14KpZwsDylCoBDZ0Y P2P7jRrJU3ZAKneWDk6Ce3ZQXyuZhFMdCho1fNgvnzoTAOyT/JwMS3900ikxdvXQhw/c J5An0gWi4jMuTWwOn5mtwD0BLjSEZo8/jvf8/DLbdqVu84Z9jJuLZH3n3FrDOPclWu3E gX8Q==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=PXkDlvxD; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1746237952; x=1746842752; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uhBb7fwDfDdrB5KvOxa0hjXRwa3qGt1uNcJyAeR0sD4=; b=m0tILzKXc+L2gifNdXgQBo8LnJY+eWYYOyNL6LCGwzahiS4KazC/e7b/0VYd7AvVk3 8tDrKtv7bB6GFyeOpuzRUEurpljknje3qvcpPPz2+c3rdWwoEjklyYeBdEZvrtbBVh1/ YYMWX1v//tdl2Cn0IeOJ1OGRnI2MywVVRhUUwj7t0H/TVGLaZ8qKlo+zfRpoewCC9jw3 Eqvd5f40c6XNHaZanTEaxd4QfAap+RnSItfo4htAYnAHZOYjq2ELF9Nr4y2H1QIQHmtH nnone1e57qbC7mRq6Cgj2+lrUk9sV86k19DlY8K8z8ocUTY5DXN6W5SFbc3GufilSwDt tIGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746237952; x=1746842752; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=uhBb7fwDfDdrB5KvOxa0hjXRwa3qGt1uNcJyAeR0sD4=; b=GlY9nOQU8ttPVdqlu/WRu14GmfNYsQLTOAQRsH74gc3bShBUIwOrEBkPv9PfRw0l1l zh7N70mA2uL4/VPhTzGW7lcWyYARC1OIP2+pjbvnkPCdLtDOKn6mdCA43HB0wssg5oAH O+pJbitkabD5XqAstQycV8m3cP+xdjptUilJY9H4MXujbJLOidFoLc+fMf9e7ZRjKpKp yoAF8FGPEzj2J+Jy+zU/NLRDqCOtLyQScoX0hRu/vUy9g/F85qu3SmjEGYY17ahnMi+/ jg7x7s/jEoaVeiCyJuzA8wsqiygUKnglb2m9hvnDKogj2zrlcagTeMsiHCup3Ca7MVvv hf7A== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWkq6YFz590cOApLQHCuMuYw1nIX4tGZXb5AZNkxViw4HYOar3/jDZPUh95DuwWzSUnug91TBN2g17Q@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzGk+3KfJt8CR6B0YsUq4IoZ6XXvez65sVx1va8R8HAezAt21tU raPDopKIKDbFOOUtnbJxASSolQzJAz8Zo60lU6MRhahBdqkfljuS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFcpjRep7PElgaDkY+p/ctB/dSRwBj3CHgNla+k7Z4RrA18lSocXNlZ5GNKMaPSzkpALnuitg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:138f:b0:607:8929:4502 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-607ee6c329cmr2476430eaf.1.1746237951874; Fri, 02 May 2025 19:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBFoMAysoV5ZAEAgfgTCDiD1QxldsZZN0Y27w6ljxf+oWQ== Received: by 2002:a05:6820:8082:b0:606:8665:33d0 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-607def3cd9dls844561eaf.2.-pod-prod-09-us; Fri, 02 May 2025 19:05:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXvhXFfzgsLWxE5eSQ8FP3/EU9Q3c945KK//lAEhpLL+VIiZ44Us9aAScYme/U26qjlFmhvXtHv0DsX@googlegroups.com X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6f96:b0:401:bb4c:af33 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4034146dedcmr2959516b6e.27.1746237948076; Fri, 02 May 2025 19:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:4382:b0:3f6:a384:eb6f with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4034248474dmsb6e; Fri, 2 May 2025 11:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUTVdysFCtcKiPhjDVgQJGK2nzYzJ5mtAp9uM3iQG8achBI9hCBX2PC2RuQXMwAIOabVdc0eu1xFEgQ@googlegroups.com X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:57ee:b0:301:98fc:9b2f with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-30a4e55af7bmr5714064a91.1.1746210589266; Fri, 02 May 2025 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746210589; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=BqNr4Vngtq0kSb9xabZ57qvCVrqh+NIeR0FOhzbnTlSL/vqbPqOWnhEu4+CeE2R98b fSf6V2QNTbGkqQFavcQaFj7ho/IgCGMhG35XPkBXK/F4ZZfAhroNLG2VjJEi8fygXsG2 1oibWek1H4cnABp5ovV7z06eOY1DWbIknxNV+Rm5vLT9P+IFXvV53rXp+cjVrXn2US1v G5uLuWl17MStcEMkj4Yb9G/v1LlHHctkQgHCFA/MemLXQbHqseI+l9rftSZG2xa8j+rw fuF0lehGxYb8hrCdMf9U4bDcES9u7zRltrR29Lk8lLKd9qWtWLuUhdHqKm6UTTb0npVq BLpw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=ZjPYeVIctWzNMzOggEKh2Bczo5AQc3weoOOL1kHafyQ=; fh=cK6/2eSq629kCb1LXrPTUChuElJ59QcC+DwK+ydSRGM=; b=IyY5PVYAuhmPb7LAE+BN4hkUAMS96RpPzJdQ/KKGLtKuxTBYCOJ6+aYCaqVLIY47Jn 9rqz3EVypdBGgOjLVA08hHiFZTuXYnHSW3PbCUycBFB8pr7LlWuq7w/UG7GzxDW1yeSf S0bD4xkBvfNJNWNPScNEYhO1Lm5pVnC+qoXsOn6jZJpTVJs40l0snzFouknSCBw67F0x NgQht7Jh9dcTJwLGYMGYw63aXOTXoYLwuRC9UAZOXrFtF8X9pcVxOmtJqlYfdSO0Kx/U q7GrWL+r+KrzFvDehbX1ptufDj285IS0VoNDirjGrAPFArsn6vcOjDay8w6xhSkxFZZm jFSQ==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=PXkDlvxD; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fout-b1-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-b1-smtp.messagingengine.com. [202.12.124.144]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-30a263eacdfsi655439a91.1.2025.05.02.11.29.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 02 May 2025 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.144 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.144; Received: from phl-compute-11.internal (phl-compute-11.phl.internal [10.202.2.51]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14758114008D; Fri, 2 May 2025 14:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-11.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 May 2025 14:29:48 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvjeefudejucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddt vdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurd horhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileef tdfgteduteeggeevueethfejtdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvght vgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepfedpmhhouggvpehsmh htphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtoheprghjsegvrhhishhirghnrdgtohhmrdgruhdprhgtphht thhopegthhhrihhsghhuihgurgesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttg hoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 2 May 2025 14:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2C7319FBD9; Fri, 2 May 2025 18:29:42 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 18:29:42 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Anthony Towns Cc: Chris Guida , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions Message-ID: References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NPlzxpHbX5JR3IpA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=PXkDlvxD; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --NPlzxpHbX5JR3IpA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 04:34:45PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > I don't share that concern, personally. Data storage is far more > efficiently done outside of a blockchain (or more cheaply done on > non-Bitcoin blockchains), and for any legitimate use case, avoiding > wasting money on inefficient designs or unnecessary engineering projects > lets you capture more of that value as profit. For scams and frauds, > that doesn't apply, but scams and frauds only last until your pool of > victims grows wise to your shenanigans. I need to point out that Citrea, and plenty of other projects similar to it, is not using Bitcoin as a data storage mechanism. It's using Bitcoin as a data *publication* mechanism. What's important is by putting data in the Bitcoin chain, we've proven that the data has been widely published to a well defined audience of participants who would need to see that data. Even Lightning does this: HTLCs work because they ensure that data is published in a way that allows others in the HTLC chain to be guaranteed to see that data in a timely manner. - https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aBUPFvXVhR3WoyPC%40petertodd.org. --NPlzxpHbX5JR3IpA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmgVDwAACgkQLly11TVR Lzf6+RAAr4vNdxm1SFncCOHhhLIEFvxwDDej8T+L4xkqyVhr/AGFJ6WPg7CNOJNG aHp0JLte+ZiKGqPiSleRlbzt3ZJQjO2u9r5vLXzoBJNH/QvkLWNZ036Rnlryddwi rx4IQg3wOMwHtqqa4xp0DgzBoU5NAkazV0yQ2w8Tl0zpYZVQhIb7GTe6O3+eqxrc saXl6n+DSWGRSEeo1JZaelI31XPklLOx8LDlPHVe9wHxQgmE8gYrJYhJPi25Yj+a Fe26Qz5PZvOo/W01AxyLS1vH8mJor/v5QaUF7lkMiN7tk7yQJY8eUPL81SK097Ua t6MwGhstFZnppsl4oie15HRl7P7pocuh2Pg+BOQjArTGWrQXVyZ5j/2WGm59QhbY 2xVXq4kvMcOO1aIhmu/inxKaDWqSX/hqMyfX64D7R9uZawU8mhsI9fOI5DVdeFrC 3aDFacww3BIkv8z02ETfwDsTC+eQxZvxJl61NuKWMElwUyaGTmruvpFRHnHsR7uB oCGhdwwkx16YIkFDZ9n84WxByBI38QA+QWhPumd5kcpgE0cnPOE/sEG1oM+uo5if BlhbOsPEUIkG3Ov0yok6g0oGmW7taG13VZ9J4EVHQ6Jr5SvoCsz8CEDoPliWKENf hXSCi8irpu/XkrHhZsUC7gBld4BJ86H+0OCycQb4Vv7MZtGZq80= =mOgC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NPlzxpHbX5JR3IpA--