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[202.12.124.145]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d75a77b69052e-48b98a267c1si1605611cf.5.2025.05.02.13.03.32 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 02 May 2025 13:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.145; Received: from phl-compute-11.internal (phl-compute-11.phl.internal [10.202.2.51]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52ADD11400D6; Fri, 2 May 2025 16:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-11.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 May 2025 16:03:32 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvjeeffeeiucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtroertddt jeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurd horhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehteffgedviefhudetffetteevhfffhfdvheef feevgeektdduudekkedugffhueenucffohhmrghinheprghnthhoihhnvghprdgtohhmpd hpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhnsggprhgtph htthhopedvpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggv vhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepuggrrhhoshhiohhrse hprhhothhonhhmrghilhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 2 May 2025 16:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0EDB79FBD9; Fri, 2 May 2025 20:03:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 20:03:28 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Antoine Poinsot Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="c3ES558w6cJYFS6M" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=vGWjc7od; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --c3ES558w6cJYFS6M Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 01, 2025 at 10:40:19PM +0000, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Dev= elopment Mailing List wrote: > As i have repeatedly asked people to take conceptual discussions to the m= ailing list, i am circling back to this thread to answer objections. I have= also written my point of view and reasons for proposing this change in a b= log post which goes into more details: https://antoinep.com/posts/relay_pol= icy_drama. I agree with the linked write-up: the quality of debate has been atrocious. We've had a bunch of people who should know better, making points that don't make technical sense, and a bunch of passerby's repeating that nonsense (as well as even more nonsensical arguments). With that in mind, I thought it'd be worthwhile to Devil's Advocate the change, and go through some technically valid arguments against it: # _Uninterrupted_ Illicit Data Credit where credit is due, this was the only reasonable argument against that was actually brought up on GitHub. In short, OP_Return, unlike other standard ways of embedding data in Bitcoin transactions, allows for long uninterrupted, arbitrary, messages to be embedded verbatim. The claimed risk is that this data could then end up peoples' hard drives, complicating forensics analysis in the future and potentially falsely incriminating people. (if you can encode your illicit data such that the right bytes happen to match Bitcoin opcodes, you can already embed it verbatim, uninterrupted, as seen by how inscriptions embed data in witnesses; Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak already brought this up on this very list). We already have this issue with dumb virus detection software. Which is why a few years ago code was added to XOR "encrypt" the block*.dat files by default (chainstate is also XOR "encrypted"). The only remaining argument here is if we should go to the trouble of adding code to Bitcoin Core to convert existing block*.dat files to the XOR scheme, without re-downloading. # Setting Policy Expectations For a Consensus Change While it is clearly infeasible to prevent people from publishing data with Bitcoin's existing consensus rules, it _is_ hypothetically possible to make data publication somewhat more expensive with consensus changes. Gregory Maxwell outlined how to do so on this mailing list years ago (I'm not going to dig up the reference). Basically his approach works as follows: 1) Limit all data in the chain to be either hash digests, signatures, pubkeys, or trivial values like true and false. 2) Require transactions to *prove* that every item of data is what it claims to be with, e.g. a hash digest pre-image, a valid signature (for a pubkey), or the fact that a signature was valid. I may be wrong. But I *believe* that with protocol changes it is possible for Lightning and Ark to work in this model. 3) Phase out non-compliant transactions, e.g. applying a block-weight multiplier that increases over time to eventually make them entirely unaffordable. Note that such a scheme *will* require massive ecosystem wide change: even existing address standards will need to be modified (and made larger) to prove that you are paying to a real address rather than something encoding data. Also note that *even this* consensus change *still* won't entirely prevent people from publishing data! No-matter what we do you can always grind pubkeys and hashes to set the first 4-6 bytes of them to the value that you want. Thus if you're pushing 32 bytes of data, encoded as 33 bytes including the serialized length, and get 5 bytes per push, you have an overhead of about 6.6x. Existing data encoders have been happy to pay even more money than that in terms of increased fees during fee spikes; the difference in cost between witness space and txout space is already 4x, and some are happy to publish data that way anyway. A tricky thing here is upgrade paths. If we make these rules apply to all transactions, with any version number, we've radically limited our ability to upgrade the Bitcoin protocol in the future. We probably can make this *not* apply to transactions and taproot script types with unknown version numbers. However we'd have to do something like ensure it only applies to insecure transactions without signatures. And even then some miners will bypass this by mining that stuff anyway for a fee. That's pretty ugly. _Maybe_ we can make a mechanism where miners signal support to allow new version numbers first, prior to an upgrade. But that also adds plenty of complexity. That said, if the Luke's of the world want to make a reasonable technical argument, come up with a reasonable scheme like the above and show that it has a chance of actually getting implemented. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= aBUlEOBqqrOIGHWC%40petertodd.org. --c3ES558w6cJYFS6M Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmgVJQ0ACgkQLly11TVR Lzey5A//fhANNPypRTASii1KN6dsmGkgX8epI80EneLEmlCwa2YXG6dh7wyp7Bgb J+mTdOil0V8v35E2Pr4U0TkppUd4HBY5HEN3rmahg++YUGLWZu11FacmIBjqMwdi BAoIiA8FCO23FIiruW8MCoXge3zLTkZtq60B+hSBltym/bwyJmWdP+f0bJ65w0jG nYwxR3cYMrFKEK6iAfLf2Vf0CQbfxXIBk3EHTR37UXhpZK4TrOQFns9ElAFf8Ara 1oI9jrHsvVHVM+BI+OHg8ltrKAqfTHJeQwlWpF0fJIqmW/CFQmBa2G19zfyk0zAb GgNhR7NjLva83ubMpUvg1F9ya0MGz2I20a6lkKhqBXxcW678tEV3Kf5B2njECmm/ fTIYmGBncrdtUg8OZPvlGTBcWk6FLFIM8pzev1OKUQxeSnconEYAIZTmC3QTTo5I UaPETzJFm12liq3weOC1wmWBF0cDQkhL+jPAkuvYNZ/G72Qa1puyRaG3CnptCmMF W9IzJ9RWgTlUOLBiZJ8lDXr/JzVuWkiXFa8U/YDAM7N01cfyi33vBKWopwTkWHiw POFhgHFAyRjFcUJ6YrhlfijZRmG6KHunsnDbj4OuOiit6BXv219jo4cE2fEDTBu6 i6bbFW/nDTCDb3fKATJY0DzUGg/4kaiR9zJFMAN+25UZ1CSZ2/w= =eKjy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --c3ES558w6cJYFS6M--