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[202.12.124.153]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71dfb90a1353d-52ae4025c67si194472e0c.2.2025.05.02.13.43.19 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 02 May 2025 13:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.153; Received: from phl-compute-11.internal (phl-compute-11.phl.internal [10.202.2.51]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECCF25401E4; Fri, 2 May 2025 16:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-11.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 May 2025 16:43:19 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvjeefgeegucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddt vdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurd horhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileef tdfgteduteeggeevueethfejtdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvght vgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepfedpmhhouggvpehsmh htphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtoheprghjsegvrhhishhirghnrdgtohhmrdgruhdprhgtphht thhopehgmhgrgiifvghllhesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoih hnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 2 May 2025 16:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F07CB9FBD9; Fri, 2 May 2025 20:43:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 20:43:15 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Anthony Towns Cc: Greg Maxwell , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions Message-ID: References: <9c50244f-0ca0-40a5-8b76-01ba0d67ec1bn@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="KLEL/1IH"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 07:51:27PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: > I think there's perhaps four conclusions you could reasonably draw about > the policies above, wrt what's been discussed on this topic: > > * encouraging data storage people to use commitments (7) didn't really > work, and given that could be done via documentation or blog posts At the moment the OpenTimestamps calendars I run are getting about 2.1 timestamp requests per second according to my logs (I keep two weeks worth). In the past, people who *genuinely* needed mere timestamping were inefficiently using OP_Return for it. A bit of education - and an alternative that actually worked - has almost entirely eliminated that usage and replaced it with something drastically more efficient. The problem is, only a subset of use-cases can get away with mere commitments. Citrea itself is an example: they genuinely need proof-of-publication. A commitment is not enough. No amount of "education" is going to convince them otherwise. Keep in mind that Lightning also uses proof-of-publication: if an HTLC goes on chain, spending it via the pre-image ensures that the pre-image is published, ensuring the next party in the route also learns the pre-image. It's a basic building block of lots of consensus algorithms. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aBUuY1k9oswEAEom%40petertodd.org. --u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmgVLmMACgkQLly11TVR Lzd7Kg//bRdMsz/i2tk1OmlBLuVNKpm6zLb138UwA7YFBAf4TqJ4F/Zp/mYmI5wo cJABrDpiU7fdgF/hcsCCZcucAD6dV75DW8gasZSejWfKJXpTWX/nx+3ChyT8FiTu fNsUdTzLu1tnXxHJ8Oh9w4FzE+4dI9ioHD1l/FC8UWOxyyJYwwZOcx14WGx/+l3x 2ieR5ZcloH4vavWVd+RIgzfQ4b6TWu8lN9ydAcQHNvNhaSFOeDKcszl8DVm4fsGC 7lJreN/ZVU6kYWI5WywTA/VJOKIIIh0O3GLJ8l9KsJ9Joi3MyZy4OscSYuWFQcgg +BemROY+/ZeV2rbCmeH44EKrCwEv5g1I1P9WLFYvl5LgJ+rNI9WVqPdimunSr/np KTFCr+4hEJ1Wy5oim26qnzTZpxdQ86g0hrqzIeLNwQB+jrqzV/uMpPFkgxz456uB 1T0PVRoro0QswRTEYhvYC2oHr4a7BN17rQY+BdgaH9PqwfHVyLe1tdMz0LJLgu1y 1Jecuq6tzos7nE8dlRsZtTZrn+zaF/KQFV9FwH8IZQvBZiWn/TC2TiC6ycfQq9KX TWixkhoVGsFZ7aXdEeotBai+NutpnGUkZ4fvqE+koGdqveRV5fIfQm9wJF/QN+7b 7XjzfAeQXfAYltFDLS2TqRQ07JOiNX1RKzrSboSbnrOOdgvZQjo= =Mx9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u64eVnSNGRtP/RS0--