From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Mon, 05 May 2025 16:39:09 -0700 Received: from mail-oa1-f55.google.com ([209.85.160.55]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1uC5Ou-00028C-9q for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 05 May 2025 16:39:09 -0700 Received: by mail-oa1-f55.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2daf2a40894sf504909fac.2 for ; Mon, 05 May 2025 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746488342; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=YqLtNBJ6l1jdjBWruon4s25UJcDsgHwUMD9TejtNRax8J41vQSGx4uxbvRYHJTxUZ/ twVCSVrttvJtAY8fvrZfzLDShq6Xov/23G0CFnatgRIBm5suWY80m7LMKHUVSqoOhRyc loRoY3KI5twrqen5W+QV1Zg2a94Os79GeGYS5mlweiqo8j8/o+OhYI5Utg5szHAziI8j Ttt87GJdEdIJ9XG1deXbCG75hAjnAt+5CNUH+IDUcjF9s+1E021NTc6QMR79OyLa2/He gc/cXqw8yvxiPPj2d1VSgGgvevQkuibHxgYslQHpaY/rds+wzY8JbAjQ4SWClwD84Ax6 vh+w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=8t5g0vRWjid8ZYdj1Fff8hUDyRoP9NJN9tTljoSI5oU=; fh=ppQiloIA6vS+S9IxMoH6SAl0MzWLFBbRhZ1Ougck3js=; b=XIz57Y6zLOUvQAiT6zv0NTtKFWHny5KZECcDuFlL0N4ETacaLCpwj+8y5ZtZEqi+6q FVk4FFYMcH9pIjdUvqaSaHbXn8PgPIgcPMT0RE55/62Xjt+Z+ZxwH586/fVQ36isNyQn oTNfa9dIQfHWbea3EF0sRVVz7YfYWyHIiO01EpLC2twNIWB/xihxHbJmO9TaSlBL1q6X CYj+JWPXv6yedD0S0fKIx6HUNieTm00JuEN51McXzdmG4CPwESZ/jZuRXe68cj2F69B9 jW1w8KUReJxcz6DhHRgDPMcmZmHMkSEmcSA5yIC/J39O3VYLutmLWAUKfgBourGePl+s c8LA==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=oUNAQrL2; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1746488342; x=1747093142; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8t5g0vRWjid8ZYdj1Fff8hUDyRoP9NJN9tTljoSI5oU=; b=UR+4gd6caibiVCCimbxxOpdmbLG83nEk1ZBokjQeRgByRGqQoMXuj/fz4Dhs2b+ul/ lXIwRGiZCu+IQ6EjRxbDXTu8mRFvZ0TfU7OInlljIZflD+MJSxXolWWJHqZ4JJyN4e96 glPckT66yPlS93AStGKh6H0HgdmSfqLfreXWcFTd2rFVODtoTxLxXsg9U3BkqiFnqIPN 8XBKdy7ezGye83y5reYdhoop31q/rGirWQczD7E7uXVFwBgRPfSjs/3Osh9O6ujORqrY QdzeY1RPgLUo7LVPfkGAxnV4f3xbDmUFk9+bx0OW2e3qCL2Got1ozQxs7jI4qrv+XYPX AskA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746488342; x=1747093142; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=8t5g0vRWjid8ZYdj1Fff8hUDyRoP9NJN9tTljoSI5oU=; b=SGgdOACDz+OP5B3uAGjb/CAS2TAiGuN1TN5XfNP4Mms+XcS55qXw9TpdxTGPtCsKJO JVUWWico5VH7xvwqaqncZX5LFQKqLKds4fFhEfmKAv8pgG70DL0exhI1lXHjmeVc9Xdf vOFuknNuvt8Te33avJ5IyDbP1pZIeJLroy68+bpz+MFKGTE+elURk0dxY91ibIJLmE5q LJZbF/0Go6wVwhRZWcgeFGISwpUIWQmCWE+HE+VaC0C4o7NHkMrzsVrxfxsksScxtjSO M1bXAExmAVp3wiJYOlPZwkky1rne78PHv55s2I5OZhOe/7BD3bZ7nb6f/mAd7Sw5XtT9 SSCg== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUXpuc/sQZJ1vNND/r+0eKt4blc5zr6VEXXSyfIDcaOgrAAf+SieTYmSDIq4bxiDVRFZpXTsCM5kW7D@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yys60oMarXkGwe51ErhuTPZnFnzKTrsa4mdY9jvya8Mdkh5XwrV OvB7ePbPDDgdZjCVj8WyZ5edM27R9bzW7ojE80SU1se1aSa9JHqh X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IESLGDvAIMg8TGO1so9CU9/tTDQseCxKTGCDzZx4VLZRnbAHrbIYRK3NMqUEs5w2El24utJ5w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:47aa:b0:29e:684d:2739 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2dae86407d4mr4842836fac.32.1746488342080; Mon, 05 May 2025 16:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBEkFyj23kcJ5cDFKnyXf320nonLiRv1tqcMyOr9mjNc0w== Received: by 2002:a05:6870:ce92:b0:2d5:b2af:47ad with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2da8a5202e6ls442856fac.1.-pod-prod-04-us; Mon, 05 May 2025 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1443:b0:3fa:adc7:1ab with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4035a57b503mr5510736b6e.17.1746488338550; Mon, 05 May 2025 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:4382:b0:3f6:a384:eb6f with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4034248474emsb6e; Mon, 5 May 2025 14:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a21:3942:b0:1f5:9f42:cfa0 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-20e979c5069mr13703190637.29.1746481517687; Mon, 05 May 2025 14:45:17 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1746481517; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=Cu9zVNNmESmS7UA5TQ5AwCCupl1g4gSEKFELaytFaMUT03LGx8Se+wpOXj91oFU5DX 062nMpxQxP6aB3FCYfYt+GIhYPRcgVS7sU0KbJocIQhBYE634j/cn4tgB0xNNImsFmF9 vMfPhyDU9w+4rbqwRc5GDZTaB/+ZBxEUhZP5RWcMlvnm2VrYQeqp0+s+e5bkSwmVriNj Ri2KDcdij3ZfegrCv1Y+jcrhtdrRqol9JtYDD6yFNAc42SFQBRH0F12wWmMnKfRLfXQx Wj3/bbqwUq+bEBfQ55WJ3+Nhal6dnYXADjHgeQ5o5aLpcFHUvFUWX8SjC/im6y6CoVrs RTug== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=DoYicgx3meWJyX9r+o4Lxr5okh+O/d8Gn9Lr/xbTZbs=; fh=buJUvwPPgdi5Z5zmcvUt6NajLrOVgzwZz6n1oNFrtB8=; b=jCZd3HhUQVsBNbVkPa5ow+cCPSuH3L7HTrdR8K+K0wBxfwUW2vJRrHWzvYzE0topG4 mBicYIRYkJKIJtvGTv1QpIoR6wRH7XNQVdZj1dN4OLLMrRl/5I0xF3YLRctP3TECnxqw /kw65/TryPSF9AFe1jKD4G7z+UrtOwu9AeRv9cJ+a5ermukAzRoQxj1U4z+DYKWijJ/T 1ncVmY4OMyQOz5ZRv/WSzCQFot9cJc+4u10UyVyN8iJYBlVhvp2Fa8VGEYiF58zOQSXF UrS44Dk/b2JrDWgqMdpn11I+hoYeo9fJeUA9I36J4R+HRRdiSeYz0MaAcLgWLFzE9ald vRuA==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=oUNAQrL2; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fhigh-a3-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a3-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.154]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 41be03b00d2f7-b1fb3c2479dsi320434a12.4.2025.05.05.14.45.17 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 05 May 2025 14:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.154; Received: from phl-compute-06.internal (phl-compute-06.phl.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA0E1140191; Mon, 5 May 2025 17:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-06.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 05 May 2025 17:45:16 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvkedvvddvucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddt vdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurd horhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgleejhefhffegfeeikeeftefgjeekieekteei uddtkeffgedvjeejtdffudeiteenucffohhmrghinheprghmrgiiohhnrdgtohhmpdhpvg htvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehm rghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhnsggprhgtphhtth hopedvpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopehgmhgrgiifvghllhesghhm rghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhroh huphhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 5 May 2025 17:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F13FA9FBD9; Mon, 5 May 2025 21:45:14 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 May 2025 21:45:14 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Greg Maxwell Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Message-ID: References: <16f3af30-985f-40b7-afc3-9faae892d824n@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="F/0dZKTpHaQVytXf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16f3af30-985f-40b7-afc3-9faae892d824n@googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=oUNAQrL2; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --F/0dZKTpHaQVytXf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 03:58:35PM -0700, Greg Maxwell wrote: > A point of clarification, that's really a scheme to keep arbitrary data > out of unprunable data. The proofs that the values in question are what > they're supposed to be are themselves arbitrary data channels. But these > proofs are prunable. When you originally proposed the scheme that may have been true. But these days you could probably use zero-knowledge-proofs to prove that hash digests are in fact hash digests, without having to include the actual pre-images of those hash digests. > A point I raised on bitcointalk: If you work out how much it costs to store > data on S3 (by far not the cheapest internet data storage) for *forever* > you end up with a rate that is less than a hundred thousandth the current > Bitcoin minimum fee rate-- maybe way less if you also factor in the cost of > storage decreasing, but I didn't. Data stuffers are not particularly price > sensitive, if they were they wouldn't be using Bitcoin at all. Schemes to > discourage them by causing them increased costs (e.g. by forcing them to > encode in ways that use more block capacity) shouldn't be expected to work. But Amazon doesn't offer a service to store data on S3 forever. Not even indefinitely. The best you can do is pre-pay costs: https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/06/aws-now-allows-customers-to-pay-for-their-usage-in-advance-/ But even *that* service doesn't actually work in a lot of cases from what I've heard. For example, I've heard that even if you have two different AWS accounts, Amazon will use pre-paid funds from one to pay the bills of another if they believe the accounts are the same underlying entity (this is quite relevant to me as one of the ways I backup the OpenTimestamps calendars I run is snapshots saved to S3 Glacier Deep Archive). There's also the issue that for Amazon's cheap storage (S3 Glacier), it's quite hard for the general public to get access to the data even if the person storing it wants to make it available. Comparing Bitcoin data storage/publication to centralized services like AWS just isn't a good comparison. Like it or not, but public blockchains are genuinely a unique service that aren't provided elsewhere. Also of course, S3 only offers storage. Not publication. Things like Citrea (and Lightning) specifically need data publication. > And to the extent that what many of these things have been doing is trying > to profit off seigniorage-- creating a rare 'asset' to sell to some greater > fool and profit off the difference-- further restricting them could > increase their volume because the resource they need has been made more > rare. For the vast majority of users the ire comes about this stuff from > the fact that they've driven up fees at times, but that is dependent on > what they're willing to spend, which is likely not particularly related to > the marginal data rates. (And one could always embed smaller jpegs, > compress them better, or not use raw json instead of an efficient encoding > if they cared.. which they clearly don't.) No, they do. As fees increased the hype around these tradable assets moved from heavy-weight inscriptions (full-on JPGs) to absurd, lightweight, memecoins that could be "registered" with much smaller inscriptions. Costs do matter, even to the scammy vibe trading industry. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aBkxapFiBxC_TeEy%40petertodd.org. --F/0dZKTpHaQVytXf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmgZMWgACgkQLly11TVR LzePgg/+J4TWRwHnug+sY/bofgIJMdhx8QZgUZGHNsc7nNIPozUB405W7YSo21Qm CjkRnOGmZs+YxnrMrVMcMr2UGz5VqEOGTgIHL+OdU0cimw4xEEMq7UpaK2cJ/bsJ tVbRDkso4B9QX6vBI6FVZwgYxPlHSmiGTitngeVwJoo0wqEngQxboGGxmX/nEL9q q5/0JNcT9RXXgp2RpIQRoyd7ND3sW6aualX1quEfRMZqHwGfj8brpKruuqVWhHpQ jXFBCJ357Ao5aS9SxTsq7imSgUY1Bd3RvNQSWW4faVJO/FiXp+lu5Jan1cYLFTtp fj6e6gBir4pGP6haoEga6fNaBZ3S1IJONf0e0M7KzxMQ3mHRx9LIGVnkaPT5RgyK bB5XqFzWcp0socHyGACf+SW7thCqqFn4G9yPQfZjgkpWT0NhUYGjX60RTwvbno9V a+XH4NGiPwfZzBs/WzfzwwsD50aLRkQXoKwvk4c07bHL/q45eA3g2Urb9ccoeZ94 n8rOxfR0rN9PinJth1AlEIMAlMz6C4uzRQmKPRdF4ySfODIiurNHnOQfj7+lZwZz cCm98M3YSRii+YPPshUXxxg/pL/+IZf+OPmNhMKYZM7BV3Hajl9JmiQrVPZrVyth ox5xuUryzcMYGmLWnXduQbfubGl+9+x5TplGSKegA88ZEyEpNjk= =NFT6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --F/0dZKTpHaQVytXf--