From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:33:06 -0700 Received: from mail-oa1-f62.google.com ([209.85.160.62]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1uM2TZ-0004Nm-SF for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:33:06 -0700 Received: by mail-oa1-f62.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2d572363154sf5645711fac.0 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:33:05 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1748860380; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=cosfeybPRwA41FJ5evQ5ofwD7PCWPeV8d+JspjBLCZY/p5TStxb3i/zv0Ay7z0JViB wgojwvTb3+TtUqdfJZnm6yaJ2zRCpe0lTK8N7LKmKEoibxH+0O1zTOeY1VIrfsNEdMWZ 5knrZiNhMcg9D9JAEZh8IaLNqt1xtgReCsHER/z2FcO1rbmv0vYDFeTi44aHD+Des3mt 1TV3c+m89Ogwf0psPhvzu+NkSG/yajyA3AYp0eyUjETbPdPRGqqMVzrfCqt3WOcspQnl 9plmtXNOjEyZxUuUtk5lZZXDK5KxzMWRzFE+z+c4vjt3ZdZsTCw2DBdYEclXjI909a5x lBQA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=Yo0HVqIcygbODZRNrDuu4AXRsACgAQ4xoeSywijQ+m0=; fh=oOKu75LraEQC/VdSMmXNjxzvXXmqnI/FTtbkv0GnqLk=; b=hgbjpSL0p7w8cSeTsnkHgNPn2yR+zcwE+/ZcCbZEt10zOeH5Ets/niloxM6iDZxTWm D3joFJ/+ftDAdg5oE54Zct6+E2jmNDaqSSmtjNFhTLzocpVCKgkAdxrxXZyMKvEXkmdj BMsrKU3Dusy00H7NceAwsiXLL/fRXsROZ89x/XTizAiYnTLN0uEdou1AmHq15S727U4c yzGsEcCDgZgulzPFDhiQOzipGaDrMCQsbHB/UZuprScP6PMryH6IZvDSBShK219ZXTnL djptSpev76zo/pjFKop7jv33mNw6vmNZqY3cAET2VHNw0II+RH+ppEuia6b7+RhWfOq7 Okjw==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=E4UkIZ0y; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1748860380; x=1749465180; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Yo0HVqIcygbODZRNrDuu4AXRsACgAQ4xoeSywijQ+m0=; b=sw4Z0z6Iyalr3XpsgBXORhfwNQ6YNA+OPkb4BhhV+i04PlDr0pBeyt5Bx7NBHfDIbt 1JOAC6uMg1QjoFUnqxSbw/uBPriWleuyJDLXIS12EG3Bdo3dI+C2upwMdwvIkQRJw1Ya BAuPUKBYr9cQfMC6bt8D7UxjxOQG/XXvs7GwPJF1py63KEtOdBEjTLIqaasoimALxj14 XrIK/iejWpabFrl2cJTw1btDtDs6VHrcL1jZqCwj9owkszPvpwGbYrjAnlgoAoEy+o7L r7fUflC1D0o8HwMKpDNRwjWm/Fe1+KUmL+4tZ5oSqhq4s70vnBxx9sjh84Hk4GAgwaXB lg0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1748860380; x=1749465180; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Yo0HVqIcygbODZRNrDuu4AXRsACgAQ4xoeSywijQ+m0=; b=iBr6n0XVAtWqlCi+ofPpaCkkGpfFKbkRtLHx+jm/Z3UbcWf/uqOhkUyKGtImSze6DY gIMlwwkpjKk0Z909iU3ugb5x45o0u8FvF/8WdePiMoGKdX0iIQGEB5Q5qKVkPqGbdFpy hc84b1JXeBJINNQQSHuR84F6cLsGYRWVodwA2VHITBE/SrSsG6mo04vbbfeqfdF7kuMV ZxeugjVxnF6JU6Tpg8E4vzK0uYANZZT5u63Qa2h4wJIiNteRjyGACPLMktMxzqLRRSP3 nwrZcKJMTW1JkDm2BNX0jqzh3dPPBLFr93Skf3y5Byvrcn1GYMQrZ8LZ5TJ8r9u1DEd1 hqeA== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCV6q/Qvfd3+4QjYiwPsmJlkUBb6MU8bVf19aV6ovdjNTDsQYXI+z1DainID29ggqbdivPOAnGZ7g4aS@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzuHgf/m5rlQI7mJ/vdSU6f0W67S+zEaI2liZnbzf9HxyV3G9Mn 0eAptqmrAenPgw2TDfWVODcuqpVKW+V75+oc1u4OJyAEUewlLbXkiiOh X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFXHXmCgejdaWdwTnRr88Xrdw2wBRB356eMuc+JYCP/412sbQNLozaeAlVde2iI7kJO5uPt5Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:390f:b0:2c8:340d:1076 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2e948ce2983mr4545540fac.32.1748860379730; Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZdQqjZOUTrDYM45HhYLR97tr72EccWtGKvufyZDsqYW/A== Received: by 2002:a4a:a40c:0:b0:5fe:b6d6:7500 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-60be54abce4ls1864958eaf.2.-pod-prod-07-us; Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6f87:b0:406:6fe7:37c1 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-407a6607a82mr4417791b6e.28.1748860375717; Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6195:b0:3f9:f009:458e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40679a2c79cmsb6e; Mon, 2 Jun 2025 03:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:748f:b0:1f3:1d13:96b3 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-21ba1060a61mr10249071637.5.1748859949717; Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:25:49 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1748859949; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=T1WLwZ9BN6qE0wcdz/CimZqVwo9qjrXqcHIeiZpDA8xjEq07zZyTVtpHbHC0KOFv/2 Lsk9lIe3SjaRixIZ6mzw2DY1l9NYKunKkGdpOJX49QlnRShC4S6a3AeY3z+GaPd9TBxg s/bo6GWkos/72M6ruU6d1dKodjdoAmAqKmOD8/kajmKD9pDb2J9QBxD0fFix4cJUD9wD 1Oar8rzSaENpwNJ3G+KjfAeVKBdSZU5cJTZD8GXnwKA498HlQItRip93HrOt0ZO1e1h1 H82PGZ3r6BIuYctu4+h1zC0Hi9oOGdeQTCCwW5NCp3O4IEMTxBJ4+ixUFNTcm121j4h+ f//Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=Pae/9xByBz8UG4ITEAm/NP+Dwvs+Cg8JMU6XewC1wEI=; fh=sjkP8zjFS5lFlY+fNUHD47XPXx06dShKmNgWs4F+if8=; b=UKgEJtvWgsOu+GQk+NDPnOpeMoV+prP3EwNcuFB6GQ0eYMnUlx+xUk0MOdBPlvGq69 XUlLW7Jt1/yF8XOC1y96cOQK8WxIFPMXENY9YgubDV1OrjC6plMHS397dsGKzHnkQaIC 9Knk/1OiMYjyIKL+2DxVlp7TRDOxCFIWZhLDJChMcnNDeMlKstNt1Jnhbi5E2nhm+sZJ CU9nmPJyk1GqJnzgh5n8WWjF7OLVCx9SIS5OIvayZDl5XaR1fGs95lMhIGZ/3A1Xtbmt aKwvLanIJBtlX/5Qurd8JnpYCiyqJAAYKIiS03g5Cbs9ZqnuGccEQUQpOT5W+kvcEvTw f8iA==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=E4UkIZ0y; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fout-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com. [202.12.124.145]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d2e1a72fcca58-747afeaa3e8si388739b3a.4.2025.06.02.03.25.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 02 Jun 2025 03:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.145; Received: from phl-compute-12.internal (phl-compute-12.phl.internal [10.202.2.52]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F78C114014F; Mon, 2 Jun 2025 06:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-12.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 02 Jun 2025 06:25:48 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddtgdefjeegfeculddtuddrgeefvddrtd dtmdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggft fghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftd dtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhf gggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvg esphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfeeijeekvdduueff heeiveefieekudfffeevgfefkedujedvveelfedvgffhkeetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehpvg htvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdgsihhttghoihhnshhtrhhinhhgshdrtghomhenucevlhhu shhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvth gvrhhtohguugdrohhrghdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepvddpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhht pdhrtghpthhtohepghhsrghnuggvrhhskeejsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtoh epsghithgtohhinhguvghvsehgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 2 Jun 2025 06:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9CAD99FCCF; Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:25:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:25:43 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Greg Sanders Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal to solve the spam war: configurable data blob relay policy Message-ID: References: <2a40a751-d0d1-4dc8-9dd5-67b7652ed8b8n@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1FSVZTFyhyOv96I/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2a40a751-d0d1-4dc8-9dd5-67b7652ed8b8n@googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=E4UkIZ0y; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --1FSVZTFyhyOv96I/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 06:16:20AM -0700, Greg Sanders wrote: > > If we need two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doing and the > other for finance with a technological fence around it, I'm all for it. Has > Citrea heard of nostr? > > Citrea, like Lightning, is relying on Bitcoin's proof of publication to > ultimately move bitcoin. Moving the data elsewhere would change the L2's > security model drastically. FYI I wrote a fair bit about proof-of-publication started in 2013, over a decade ago: https://petertodd.org/2013/disentangling-crypto-coin-mining https://petertodd.org/2014/setting-the-record-proof-of-publication Putting data in the Bitcoin chain creates a proof that an overwhelming amount of hash power has "seen" the data; in practice it's proof that everyone who could ever want a copy of that data has a copy of it. Lesser schemes simply can't provide that kind of guarantee. So it should be no surprise that high-value use-cases like Citrea - or even NFTs - choose to use Bitcoin as a publication layer. That said, it would be interesting to see some schemes with lesser security guarantees get developed. Bitmessage for example tried to develop a message publication layer for anonymous messaging. But, notably, the last release of Bitmessage is over 7 years ago, and I've been told that the software basically doesn't work any more and old messages have all been lost. Data published to the Bitcoin chain a decade ago can still easily be recovered. A case in point: https://bitcoinstrings.com/ If someone does want to make a serious attempt at developing a new type of proof-of-publication system, I'd strongly suggest focusing on the proof aspect: make sure that your underlying cryptography actually proves that a given bit of data is widely published. For example, if the system is based on sacrificing Bitcoin to make data valuable, prove that other, previously published, data was also published by using some kind of proof-of-posession like a random sampling of a merkle tree of previously published data to show that all data in the system had reached the wide audience that it is supposed to. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aD18J2cP4x-ddzwD%40petertodd.org. --1FSVZTFyhyOv96I/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmg9fCcACgkQLly11TVR Lzf5rRAAmygOTFxd+3oiV7tebSzEUxgtDDeDZPAiz5nBV9t3w0pBhEGBdyVSbECf /Pl7lqTqVpzix5bN6B4wFW4ADOXv4NNOvDJhrVGnX7hM8v5sgfmTySDuC0B2OmPG tFn0uLX3COB1CKZTWRBJe4isw010nfelapOrcjYc9toaBHhNRUNmGRdxsmzSbggQ rvVYTPFgaGWxSbNUpu9mBBw4bS6hQxqIrHf7b6NJsqFVPvcVr/mLH6nN5kSkFkGA ArZsBdpjXhOs7Smpr4NfZM4tfQzhi+lWIcWt1nXRQzAizoEdguqAFAmVdLvwW3y0 xZFj3kZOdQ3P/dTae/+LafsVwuhSDhY0Z3x1LmgDY1Xy/6/L+EH3Wnnv5Y2u5tL8 7LxV4FHunkW36mop4e2/nQkERXOiET15faVycLaHgs1yF3Jtly0gCW/gUOkZVFnp O9ZWOyqA+GtY1/Ew2pP9OZ0Fo8jONQiVD4d7DEBn6LKHcvJXh0LqZ3MTLNKaM1Pt p8KpR+cOFJ5cer50S5rMuX/KsG3Z3WutmAY31jinb2IOaVF/iIQtS918V/tmIaS/ kc4zNsA2p4iz+NS07BbhXa5ywS8Wq4JQjQ9rihc5JmsrtNEWl9prFneuRVxBIAMC Rjr6xzPy/q6KVZFW1WeZSo0ELdRgphMv9RP0Tdw5hqqa7QsyHvY= =Y/Hc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1FSVZTFyhyOv96I/--