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[103.168.172.151]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-3124e37fedcsi856631a91.3.2025.06.03.10.58.27 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.151 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.151; Received: from phl-compute-06.internal (phl-compute-06.phl.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailfout.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97F41380396; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 13:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-06.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 13:58:26 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugdeltdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpuffr tefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnth hsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttdejnecu hfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfffggfdtgeevjefhteffieduledugfegtdetgeehjeeu ueeuueeiuedtueduueegnecuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehp vghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopeefpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpoh huthdprhgtphhtthhopegthhhrihhsghhuihgurgesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphht thhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhmpdhrtghpth htohepjhhohhhnsehshihnohhnhihmrdhtoh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 13:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 10EBB9FD96; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 17:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 17:58:24 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Chris Guida Cc: John Carvalho , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out the garbage(man) Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sNAh0ZAykF1BbesD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=NPdrt5GD; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.151 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --sNAh0ZAykF1BbesD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 02, 2025 at 08:52:15PM -0600, Chris Guida wrote: > "NODE_LIBRE_RELAY" is not defined anywhere in bitcoin core or any other > official documentation. Bit 29 is just a random bit reserved for future > use, as far as the bitcoin protocol itself is concerned. So when Peter sa= ys > Garbageman "falsely advertises the NODE_LIBRE_RELAY service bit", this is > incorrect. It is not possible for GM or any other software to misuse this > bit, as it has no official significance. This is Bitcoin: there is no "official documentation". What things mean is defined by customary usage. Which in this case is prett= y clear: Libre Relay is using the NODE_LIBRE_RELAY (bit 29) service bit. > Peter himself, using Libre Relay, was ultimately responsible for getting > this option defaulted to =E2=80=9Con=E2=80=9D in core, by taking the batt= le directly to the > mining pools. What the anti-filter crowd does not seem to realize is that > Peter never would have succeeded if the noderunner community had been > opposing him on this. This is nonsense. In a sense, the noderunner community *was* opposed to full-rbf for a very long time: hardly any nodes relayed full-rbf replacemen= ts until Bitcoin Core decided to turn it on by default. As with Libre Relay, I maintained a full-rbf peering fork of Bitcoin Core, advertising a FULL-RBF service bit, and a sufficiently large minority ran t= hat fork to relay full-rbf replacements to the miners that were interested in t= hem. As with Libre Relay, many of those miners didn't actually run that fork themselves, and instead privately peered with my full-rbf peering nodes to ensure they got the transactions they were interested in. Funny enough, Bitcoin Knots also sybil attacked full-rbf peering, probably unintentionally: Knots advertises the full-RBF peering bit without actually doing the peering that makes the service bit worthwhile. For awhile there w= ere a sufficiently large number of Knots nodes that an actual full-rbf peering = node would tend to have only Knots nodes as peers. While at the same time, there weren't enough Knots nodes to reliably propagate full-RBF replacements. I fixed this problem by running a dozen or so genuine full-RBF peering node= s, each on a different VPS, and thus diverse address space (I went through a l= ist of Bitcoin accepting VPS's, and bought one from pretty much every VPS provi= der I could find in Ukraine - obviously their ISPs could use the revenue right now). > Yes, I=E2=80=99m sure there are strategies for getting LR nodes to detect= GM nodes > and banning them. And I=E2=80=99m equally sure that, if implemented: >=20 > 1) Very few people will run them. Only LR nodes are likely to run the > garbage-maximizing strategies Peter outlined above. I don=E2=80=99t know = of any > noderunners in their right minds who would run them. > 2) The pro-spam-filtration noderunner community will work around these > detection methods any way we can, and we will never give up. Sounds like you don't actually have anything to say about my proposed anti-censorship mechanism of measuring total fees relayed. That's a decent = sign that it does in fact work and garbageman has no way to defeat it. Anyway, I think this conversation risks wasting the time of everyone on thi= s list, as you don't actually have anything technical to say. But I will say, once cluster mempool is merged in Bitcoin Core, I'd be open to working with anyone interested in either funding or implementing this (ideally as a pull= -req to Bitcoin Core - all Bitcoin nodes have an interest in bypassing censorshi= p of transactions they accept). --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= aD83wBeeuZ32bGjz%40petertodd.org. --sNAh0ZAykF1BbesD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmg/N78ACgkQLly11TVR LzfIiRAAqP+V5vbc9n7lbPL16x2oPo/JXrzlGCv0aZbBN2irbDLIIk0TcuzkNUF7 LKzzRArDKnQt08CjX+qumqImYghwg7Dff8LALYlGzv/W9YZqozKH76UviToxGW0j uThIWZ4X9tod91cUEidVjKU4NRXMziidR+KrV8bCC4zpGoi9Ht2bmSHSblDuXRQI CZosJXDOAIPDGxJNQK9Vg9qsQKKIfxt4TEo0pOKf2GQb5iPNVpU7bBD4mR2gHKpu BiWs/XnO81xkV58z/qr4qt5FmmoEjsRb1jn7f6YbTupyf2Vx3gpF1J1mqxBif/HH byIW5sKEXgLR2MIZCf4mpQlyYE2XuaaJMcd94iFNzzMwNflubTwxFAzN/aElG/P+ m9A6R3mQlUuvmnELMTb0HAH0qQaQ0PpwXQ05UyEh7teuT+GhJ4NpWuoi/OjPXIgR XKd3G+jP9o/zK08rBUZ6F4iJZlZNTM1AUpLiQN1Wz4mgchrJJJOahG5xKeUOrbcg LQVpsIXvyMlOWKS6EvMQNiKHvei5I725tfCEECQqV1eKu8OsgYozOHj0ODXQsoVK 6xsZ77iOX5JGcNnDgY9Iq0EeJWZrnwUSZwu6OyygBTltyXBBz8UVynThSlcPoFWc +vqFFYvKbGqYTgjc2ir7H7DcuVA69jqWsM9jF56VCTtrkxe5fE0= =E4Bv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sNAh0ZAykF1BbesD--