From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:29:43 -0700 Received: from mail-oa1-f60.google.com ([209.85.160.60]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1uMWOM-0003q9-Ap for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:29:42 -0700 Received: by mail-oa1-f60.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2da80e525e3sf6137991fac.1 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:29:42 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1748975376; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=QfwFNb2/43Pay1/W6PLBfqLZnH73OxDsyPQblG8YchSf5N0We3yRbWKrxoAws6frqx +mZtOyc2bQr9KPo8KGMHgnk4GKPsIVJiCEow5VKIN5iyoEx3z87faDaW/96CZG/JOben AQcS9+dT0Ux9aiud+Yn2GhxmikwjiN74vQrS+ViItWV6PDLfMnI868u8/z4NbXkFbzKn pMbOnMazMMGSthgXEK3DVjcsZLg3cJYrLsADspQRGdfJYZBdEgfhkaLHkr0dvPg761RH ThntKFzOhQYW2pcR8IMlLBLytWhLh3LuXVZgqy8gQ8trT2BuzvGnEMuCo5ZynslRwoIU DY3Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=Zpn/HwdTxJxhJ+U0QvEhqMWXEpCEgY4SSxpqjYiCcvk=; fh=vG0M5LS4bB00PGdYVlx+Yk7ODx6mrAdYS+2sgRezjf0=; b=E3+2F3iSO/gM7lxZ3Ahc8ZZdt9Y1apeyWGiAohJTjcu3FEAZ6Rohc6NnCFAvc5OE8K 7TrP8R8rpJ6VHVHYKA4eIzzUZpidBZ2UrW241bju4w+gZev4QqeaUrtND4lxD0QyXQwd vfOh4iQKUvuciTaAqwXtx3eHodDro+okUhc3d7qbuY91uMo4drcOtmsz12iNzbGqJsFm UXP15XxCTiU/dT9bo90Nas29hrz4Kf+PmgxGl6C4jx2PORfFHxmbeEUUDKtUqnziYKi+ RU1iwcz1NhEUl3jhZcT3npEABo8PVPdT/YaJ5SC5edTLQSAr18S71gme1we0nK+5KiK+ nCeQ==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=TmDhLUiC; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1748975376; x=1749580176; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Zpn/HwdTxJxhJ+U0QvEhqMWXEpCEgY4SSxpqjYiCcvk=; b=Sc2ajcx33cC/mOpl0028urlX7YDKGLWrMYnFdFILoMo2/VASk6ON1dpBtRrRicGtNq wtTn0M+QBZCXo9YkeJE1VN8Zat8xBhUCXNjFVKYEDU/7W1cBcYYnmYkc9Yau6ZXI6TL8 kwAqRH9GYPZu4lvU0UkYiFXI6Qqg5GACyl0a91m16VLduiBNgACYxxdLsmi82dvfMtxU wMcyBz71yDtAG5agu4BH1ti+v5rlViYPU1qNjatX80mVIYBzjc9o4uM3bWFQb3Ic9CtP /72jORUDUIKQ+i4POrBsFgywUydRRlejsIZ4OoOSEsnDaSND+/yrWVmrjGdFiTqabczP AZeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1748975376; x=1749580176; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Zpn/HwdTxJxhJ+U0QvEhqMWXEpCEgY4SSxpqjYiCcvk=; b=Snp5hsbXECh8pv9sSE6GQGAUMrdwXd5aobBkEhTgLSY8kQID2n5sQRggF2TeEZqngq Wu1YQs5MsFcSOZgHlGn7yFd7Vav6fWLvIUxkZzppIYQDRbfjm9XJZ3XUTTc0xDVvxIw+ bxKEkr4QRN9XdLz9QQ49psHbrwvzUJVUN5rzbMJ3owYALHiF/YH1kIUxyGrckxANpyVx t3nkKjy6/sFI56a+X3+az1cGunXbZcOw1c9T63SjbxLZyEkmRXqGj9d/rcBx9oREkfA0 idGEKQaRfHmDtq0/1fIGcCQdnWp+d/nOoACtS7XRQ+98rXpoX8g/rH3rLJ3LDmtWkiJG Tu1A== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUNd1FNy8FHeIBKjOTnJT9SFG4L+2qE1wl8aCXV8Ep8H5C61zv14+owgK+71t5Mb/xRozWwXlIGWAbH@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzgLTUzWdW5L36oxpReVMxq/l8FZP5pCSBzPb8u7us5pa4zomOQ dTpbcipqkd2RmqIGyQXoTZELDsvYA/rXf8OQ/i8nfTGiN3sWQ4uuSRQx X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH8v2VM4Z6OXnq7Uk61fR9kK66LxlHy1Ml4g8+RdyJIBnPtjjT4ep3nZBlLejOiBVndjaff2Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:c710:b0:2d4:ce45:6987 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2e92a1a1dccmr10428212fac.9.1748975376537; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:29:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZdsCHhUk+H5vhMDCrDfzyCUufm5Ef021A9B6k3/cVxRnA== Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9a24:b0:2c1:58ea:4cc1 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2e8fea86bdels3822791fac.2.-pod-prod-05-us; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:6c8e:b0:3f8:3eeb:11a3 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-408f0ee7349mr138035b6e.11.1748975373652; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3d5:b0:3f9:f009:458e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-408f01a806fmsb6e; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1c24:b0:3dc:7fa4:845 with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3dd9cbf6c53mr185341555ab.20.1748972515662; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:41:55 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1748972515; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=EiUFwuD8xvrbnsyizmg9YzBvyv37FLKFavnrTGccic6E0yQFAs/yjeAo7uUR5kzmtj uV7diZCq4Pf9v3Rqbu+Hl893MSH+0+188MLCuxWAs86jbT6BJjlxbBe4mqBHAiaUfNxY ZUek5sqlgd/GXIN3JLqwm6nPUM5tVaDNzboVS168VUdTr3SnbC/IL2RZcDC8MEL6DMDC fgw8ZrjpONUK9lXhm8ssaiUgzTfPXOHSDUSBDn1LwEJ6Fdb/yzwX7iR0UqOIoxw0EBtO FwvU6y9p3/BZnHFTexRxuu4BEcOLv4waxhzxoPh6uOaiuNi0G57QkY+6WTMnwamtAU0h A4FQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=MV098zVIu4MnKLnmKDmUx8XOC1fxrNSuyfNk9Ir+9QI=; fh=ykxiNqjf//+BiDAW8efWJAjdCFW+S1iX6pn+7QgqWu4=; b=OhnXtAjIlEAXaIiE2WZHHh0FIyc5+KX2+rsS1ZeZTI9CcvE7XWv3PtJfomXfaPj408 ZPCnCXcqeBp5b7Tfq/1PgVmRs8iCDftV6/btI8b5jEZO4w5x1GZWDIN1pbiXGzmlfEwL lysMquBrAmOdLrKUoe7Cz5j8SfgSg4ejbUrVZ65WvSnOKr7VTcbLccHOh63exmhLPMcq hCHfnA64FR/LgZ5r7/ft67QvQIQrk+kYy7ARfvRFA1C5T+8aPYzcn76fQ9Zl3di47coQ GE64DQT1JUFabBjp0AZPIRTpSz9awbi2a/sUZjbPh638Jl18ik0k/FuZROieLEdd2O5i Faiw==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=TmDhLUiC; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fhigh-a2-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a2-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.153]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8926c6da1cb9f-4fdd7ed2aa8si336873173.5.2025.06.03.10.41.55 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.153; Received: from phl-compute-08.internal (phl-compute-08.phl.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218C51140094; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 13:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-08.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 13:41:55 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugdekiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpuffr tefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnth hsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecu hfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepledvleelffdtudekudffjefgfeejueehieelfedtgfet udetgeegveeutefhjedtnecuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehp vghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedvpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpoh huthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgt ohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepshhjohhrshesshhprhhovhhoohhsthdrnhhl X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 13:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ED5639FD96; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 17:41:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 17:41:51 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Sjors Provoost Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out the garbage(man) Message-ID: References: <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jvutmvFouZC/GwZF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl> X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=TmDhLUiC; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --jvutmvFouZC/GwZF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 03, 2025 at 08:50:34AM +0200, Sjors Provoost wrote: > Or people can just spin up more Libre Relay nodes. Both miners and issuer= s of various scam tokens have a monetary incentive to do that. Whereas prop= onents of filters are (so far) not willing to invest serious money. E.g. wh= en I challenged Luke Dashjr in an earlier post to reorg a single block with= spam, he didn't respond [1]. Worse, Ocean proactively offers "Core" [0] te= mplates. Although running a node is cheap, if this becomes an arms race, th= e side that actually spends money has the advantage. I need to point out that you're being unfair to Ocean here: with their <1% = hash power it's damn near impossible for them to reorg blocks. The reason is bec= ause if there are two blocks at the same height, Bitcoin Core accepts the first block seen. Thus if Ocean wants to reorg a "spam" block out, they need to find not just one, but two blocks in a row before any other miner finds one. The probabil= ity of that happening is (very) roughly 1% * 1% =3D 0.01% per attempt. Given th= at blocks are worth ~$300k these days, you're asking them to spend tens of millions of dollars worth of hash power just to reorg out a single block. It's not going to happen. --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= aD8z34hk6IQ21cSv%40petertodd.org. --jvutmvFouZC/GwZF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmg/M9wACgkQLly11TVR Lzc03Q//TRsxL3F3SvrIWnEbuiCjMT2jURwk8gaq2wpHDBAkKzOf40tB1wJ7EgC8 mwR6UzAS9bLLCiENpYgwJeCmwrNHLJBbyvFHE23YepjCC+McQiMhMljEuZmzi8aC BrJYfLCKAte4gA8MuoFwB2HVRXVkrgBF8RBKTg6u6/vABATYbXxNKX89FYgjCisx uZXPUMDx8HAdWTSxvRTJJ2aeo854xgNcJbCxjzAhVe9mMMzefS3H6lb8U3K8NQza W8qWOA3F4wypA+T9qq11GdpN5Djn3wMqa+ZfLlbqkXBdiTrU/RmU0O3tOniV4UxU lWn2nAdjzerMxY6WDkggg1bmfVGH51IcX/fGDnWyffi4XJ5V4T6u1StFlGhV4HFG sX6TJr7+OA09udRTRXGfLsjDzqVm9wkkE/nG3V4ab4MAH8dO7aCP0EMWBMAO7F75 cWNtZFkdMmcE8cF29/cZIAJD6hhDCTrAClZunYgg/5EhG4VaACQz0mgNg9VT3Pq0 24DraIbUesuL9WPKtp1b//pKH4STFaIMMSnVYpHO9l9JD12xRMKFlT0Lf3lj3YZu BKUHekC8kxQGVpk+JCJ5q7j7t+7FCyUzO8kjvFBc9XrujK//ErrkrZ+IXJ5PoJaR ihVdfD4/QVT5VitnN+WdDMfPbbJPkA/iV0ZGjo5CHfS4lfEsPR0= =WUGv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jvutmvFouZC/GwZF--