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From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Cc: James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.com>,
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 14:28:28 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <aFVwDLBUJBbHKJLX@petertodd.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAB3F3Dsf8=rbOyPf1yTQDzyQQX6FAoJWTg16VC8PVs4_uBkeTw@mail.gmail.com>

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On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:33:35AM -0400, Greg Sanders wrote:
> It clearly can be a liability if the relative utility of CTV is damaged by
> a possible future change, even non-consensus ones, some of which are
> already being deployed with non-zero miner support such as
> https://x.com/PortlandHODL/status/1921350395424563572 . This could have led
> to legitimate usage of CTV being trivially DoS'able. Good news is there are
> practical if not beautiful mitigations to this that don't involve annex
> commitment. See https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32453 and
> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/pull/10 for some relevant details.

Note that in this example the "mitigation" is simply enforcing what is optimal
for miners: mining annexes only when the annexes are required for the
transaction to be valid.

A miner who had allowed standard annexes who was *not* mining CTV transactions
because of a large uncommitted annex is just unnecessarily losing money. They
could easily take that exact transaction, remove the uncommitted annex, and
earn a bit more money. In much the same way that a miner can always do
themselves unnecessary harm by disabling the clean-stack check, and then
failing to mine perfectly valid transactions that would be more profitable if
the extraneous stack elements were removed (modulo non-segwit cases with
high-fee child transactions of course).

It may be a good idea for CTV to commit to annexes. But this issue isn't a
reason to do so.

-- 
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2025-06-23  9:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 64+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2025-06-09 11:40 [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter James O'Beirne
2025-06-09 12:51 ` Michael Folkson
2025-06-09 14:41   ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-09 15:56     ` Michael Folkson
2025-06-09 13:51 ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-09 14:43   ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-09 17:51     ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-09 19:27       ` /dev /fd0
2025-06-09 21:12         ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-09 18:55 ` 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-06-10  2:02   ` Paul Sztorc
2025-06-09 23:02 ` Andrew Poelstra
2025-06-10  2:08   ` David A. Harding
2025-06-10 13:23     ` Andrew Poelstra
2025-06-10 17:17       ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-10 23:42         ` Antoine Riard
2025-06-12  3:34           ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-13  1:18             ` Antoine Riard
2025-06-10 23:42         ` Antoine Riard
2025-06-11 13:52         ` Peter Todd
2025-06-13  6:19       ` Anthony Towns
2025-06-13 14:50         ` Harsha Goli
2025-06-10 14:03     ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-10 16:56       ` Sjors Provoost
2025-06-10 17:15         ` 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-06-10 19:04         ` Paul Sztorc
2025-06-28 16:13           ` Saint Wenhao
2025-06-11 18:09         ` Brandon Black
2025-06-10  2:28   ` Melvin Carvalho
2025-06-10 13:19     ` Greg Sanders
2025-06-11 14:12       ` James O'Beirne
     [not found]         ` <CAB3F3Dsf8=rbOyPf1yTQDzyQQX6FAoJWTg16VC8PVs4_uBkeTw@mail.gmail.com>
2025-06-11 16:50           ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-11 18:34             ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-11 20:30             ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-12  0:59               ` Harsha Goli
2025-06-12 18:04                 ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-12 18:38                   ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-12 18:43                     ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-12 19:51                     ` Andrew Poelstra
2025-06-12 22:44                       ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-13 11:08                         ` Jameson Lopp
2025-06-13 12:36                           ` Matt Corallo
2025-06-13 13:07                           ` 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-06-13 15:41                             ` Jameson Lopp
2025-06-14 15:58                               ` Sjors Provoost
2025-06-14 20:05                                 ` Jameson Lopp
2025-06-14 16:06                               ` gmaxwell
2025-06-14 20:17                                 ` Jameson Lopp
2025-06-14 21:31                                   ` Greg Maxwell
2025-06-14 23:50                                     ` Sanket Kanjalkar
2025-06-15  0:01                                       ` Greg Maxwell
2025-06-15  0:20                                         ` Sanket Kanjalkar
2025-06-15 14:40                                     ` Jameson Lopp
2025-06-15 17:43                                       ` Greg Maxwell
2025-06-15 19:43                                       ` Owen Kemeys
2025-06-20 14:28           ` Peter Todd [this message]
2025-06-13  5:50       ` Anthony Towns
2025-06-12  2:06 ` Greg Maxwell
2025-06-12  3:23   ` James O'Beirne
2025-06-17 11:22 ` Steven Roose
2025-06-17 14:34   ` 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-06-17 16:40     ` Harsha Goli
2025-06-21 12:06       ` fiatjaf
2025-06-17 18:19     ` /dev /fd0

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